Scrum advantage before 80:00

buff


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The lineout should have occurred. Had the Bristol player, being in touch, knocked the ball before it crossed the plane of touch, play carries on and we argue over the knock on. That isn't what happened. Had the Bristol player jumped from the playing area into touch and knocked the ball on into the playing area, we argue over the knock on. That isn't what happened either. 18.2b states that if a player jumping from within or outside (as in our case) the playing area then catches the ball (not in our case) and lands in the playing area (possibly in our case) then ball isn't in touch. He did not catch the ball. Lineout to Leicester.
 

Butters


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The lineout should have occurred. Had the Bristol player, being in touch, knocked the ball before it crossed the plane of touch, play carries on and we argue over the knock on. That isn't what happened. Had the Bristol player jumped from the playing area into touch and knocked the ball on into the playing area, we argue over the knock on. That isn't what happened either. 18.2b states that if a player jumping from within or outside (as in our case) the playing area then catches the ball (not in our case) and lands in the playing area (possibly in our case) then ball isn't in touch. He did not catch the ball. Lineout to Leicester.
I agree in a 3 point game with time up, that should definitely have been investigated.
 

crossref


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Merry Christmas all. Here is Butters' question with gift wrapping removed.

A Red player knocks the ball on at 79:55 and it is gathered by Blue. Ref plays advantage. At 80:10 refs decides that no advantage is coming so blows whistle for the knock on.

Should ref:
1. set scrum because offence occurred before 80:00 minutes, or
2. end game because whistle was blown after 80:00 minutes?

Law 5.7 tells us:
this is a great question.

I think the answer is that the game ends .... so a ref should be very careful about playing adv across the 80:00 mark -- and mostly call 'no adv' at 79.59
 

Butters


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what takes you to that conclusion?
Because time was up and nowhere in the laws does it say you go back for an advantage in open play that doesn’t materialise after the clock goes red. You quoted me 5.7. That doesn’t say you do. Well done on the Ashes though.
 

OB..


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Surely a scrum is awarded when the offence occurs. There was no advantage, so the referee goes back to the offence.

Law 5 allows for this
5.7.1 A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
  1. A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play.
The scrum had clearly not been completed, so it could be played.
 

Butters


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Surely a scrum is awarded when the offence occurs. There was no advantage, so the referee goes back to the offence.

Law 5 allows for this
5.7.1 A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
  1. A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play.
The scrum had clearly not been completed, so it could be played.
The scrum hadn’t been awarded though. That terminology applies when the scrum is given at 79:59 and the game will continue until it is completed. The ref had not awarded the scrum before the clock went red. The offence to give the scrum had. It’s gone to the RFU panel this morning for clarification.
 

Marc Wakeham


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To strip back to the actual video. Hew land on the touch line. The line out should have taken place.

To move to the scenarion discussed: The time of the awarding of the scrum is critical (Law 5.7.a) Was the scrum awarded before or after 80 minutes? Does the indication of Adantage = The awarding of a scrum? Over to you Butters.
 

Marc Wakeham


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For me , so accusation of "sitting on the fence". The referee is pointing towhere the offence takes place (roughly) he watches wh ogathers the ball on the floor Bristol (as happened) or Lericester when advantage would then have been a fair call. I think Inthe second scenario the call would have been right. Had the correct call be made (Line-out Leicester). Who is to say the outcome would not have been the same? Bristol should perhaps look at the conceeding of the final PK.
 

Butters


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To strip back to the actual video. Hew land on the touch line. The line out should have taken place.

To move to the scenarion discussed: The time of the awarding of the scrum is critical (Law 5.7.a) Was the scrum awarded before or after 80 minutes? Does the indication of Adantage = The awarding of a scrum? Over to you Butters.
This is what is being discussed today by the RFU. It appears nobody knows!!! Is it when the offence happened or when the scrum is awarded. This is a very rare scenario as a penalty advantage, you would go back for, a scrum advantage that is taken would just be play on. And it is only level 3 and above as National 2 and below don’t rely on ‘stadium’ clocks.

However I do remember an international where the stadium clock was different to the refs watch and he told the players that.
 

OB..


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When a scrum offence takes place, the time it occurs must surely be deemed to be the moment of the offence, not the moment the referee blows his whistle or indicates that he is playing advantage. If you don't do it that way, you end up with the situation where the speed with which the referee blows the whistle becomes crucial, whereas it should be irrelevant.

Moreover the referee should not be forced into a situation where he has to decide whether to call advantage or time.
 

Butters


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RFU feedback. Team of 4 got it wrong. It should have been a line out, but once the line out isn’t given, it should have been the end of the game and not a scrum. So Foley sort of got the right decision but through the wrong methodology.

Expect formal clarification later in the week.
 

ianh5979


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At least at my level no-one else will know the exact time, so they can't argue the decision
 

Balones

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After looking at the video it seems obvious to me that it should have been a lineout because it certainly looks as if the ball had crossed the plane. But I haven’t seen a camera view along the plane admittedly. The first thing that happened was the ball crossed the plane. The second was the knock-on.
 

Balones

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There didn’t seem to be any consultation about whether the ball had crossed the plane so I am unsure as to whether the AR was unsighted or the officials weren’t sure of the law. The RFU outcome would suggest that they agree that the ball did cross the plane first.
What I can’t understand is why at the scrum the Bristol S/H wasn’t penalised for the shove on the L S/`H and the resulting altercation was totally ignored. I’d be disappointed if at the community level it wasn’t penalised because it is certainly something we don’t want to see.
 

Dickie E


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Well done on the Ashes though.

yeah, watching it now. Hopefully Root can pull off some magic to at least get to day 4.

EDIT: belay that. Will now be lucky to get to lunch on day 3
 

Dickie E


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After looking at the video it seems obvious to me that it should have been a lineout because it certainly looks as if the ball had crossed the plane. But I haven’t seen a camera view along the plane admittedly. The first thing that happened was the ball crossed the plane. The second was the knock-on.

not sure why you're focussing on the plane of touch. It would have been play on if player had landed in FoP regardless of plane of touch. So only question to the AR is did the player land in, or not in, touch. Law 18:
The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.

Unless you're thinking this may have happened:

The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
A player, who is in touch, kicks or knocks the ball, but does not hold it, provided it has not reached the plane of touch.
 
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