Scrum advantage before 80:00

Jarrod Burton


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I find the comments about not checking your watch when its near full time a bit weird - it takes maybe a second to check, or if you have a count down timer, you would heard the chime or if really fancy, feel the vibration. I've never missed a FT chime from my watch, even when running hard.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I find the comments about not checking your watch when its near full time a bit weird - it takes maybe a second to check, or if you have a count down timer, you would heard the chime or if really fancy, feel the vibration. I've never missed a FT chime from my watch, even when running hard.
I think the point is to look at a watch when your eyes need tonsee what is going on, may not be the best idea, assuming that no vibrate or sound available. Indeed if you have an audible or vibrating announcement of time why would you look?
 

crossref


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I find the comments about not checking your watch when its near full time a bit weird - it takes maybe a second to check, or if you have a count down timer, you would heard the chime or if really fancy, feel the vibration. I've never missed a FT chime from my watch, even when running hard.
if you have a chime or vibration then I agree, you should know whether time is up, without looking

Indeed a chime is akin to having a stadium clock: the players also can hear it, and know that time is up (although if they haven't heard it, they can't be sure there is time left, it could also be that they didn't hear it.
 

Stu10

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The lineout should have occurred. Had the Bristol player, being in touch, knocked the ball before it crossed the plane of touch, play carries on and we argue over the knock on. That isn't what happened. Had the Bristol player jumped from the playing area into touch and knocked the ball on into the playing area, we argue over the knock on. That isn't what happened either. 18.2b states that if a player jumping from within or outside (as in our case) the playing area then catches the ball (not in our case) and lands in the playing area (possibly in our case) then ball isn't in touch. He did not catch the ball. Lineout to Leicester.

18b says "A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch." I think he landed on the line, so did not return to the FOP, therefore lineout (knock on is then irrelevant); but let's say he landed in the FOP... according to 18b he must (1) jump, (2) catch the ball and then (3) land in the playing area, but it does not say he must still be in possession of the ball when he lands... if he completes the 3 required actions then I don't see an issue that he also passed the ball between catching and landing. Also, since neither the ball nor ball carrier has touched the ground outside the playing area then the ball is not in touch at all (if he had landed within the FOP).

After looking at the video it seems obvious to me that it should have been a lineout because it certainly looks as if the ball had crossed the plane. But I haven’t seen a camera view along the plane admittedly. The first thing that happened was the ball crossed the plane. The second was the knock-on.

In touch is when "the ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond". Simply crossing the plane of touch whilst in the air is not "in touch".

Regarding the clock and whether advantage should have been played, I can't find anything in the laws that specifically states the correct action in the scenario, therefore I think common sense and what feels right (with benefit of doubt) should guide the decision... I don't expect Bristol complained that the scrum was awarded, but if it had not been allowed you can be certain there would be outcry from Leicester.

Bristol were deemed to have knocked on before the clock reached 80 min, therefore Leicester must be allowed to benefit from the Bristol infringement with either a tangible advantage in open play or a scrum. You don't want a scenario where the ref is blamed because he decided to play 5 seconds of advantage until the clock hit 80 min and therefore actively denied Leicester the opportunity of an attacking scrum and the opportunity to win the game.
 

Balones

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Stu 10 - You’ve misread what I have written. The point I was making was that an offence happened while the ball had crossed the plane. I never mentioned anything about it being in touch. We take a knock-on from the point of the knock on (offence) and not where the ball lands. I am arguing that the knock-on while the ball had crossed the plane meant that it had to be a lineout. You do not have in the law book for such a situation a position for the scrum. The referee just made it up on the day.
Anyway, in my opinion the video shows a forward pass and not a knock-on. He grabbed hold of it and threw it back into play.
 

Stu10

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OK, I see what you are saying. You are right that the law book does not specifically cover this situation... again assuming he had landed in the FOP and not on the line (warranting a line out), I would award a scrum in line with the player and 5m in from touch, ie in the scrum zone (this would be the outcome whether a knock-on or forwards pass). For a lineout to be awarded then the ball or player must be in touch, which means player or ball must touch the ground (or something) outside the FOP... if neither touched the ground, then the ball has remained in play (ball crossing the plane is irrelevant) and the knock on/forward pass was committed by the player effectively in the FOV where his foot landed on the ground... because the point of the offence is within 5m of the touchline, we move so the scrum is within the scrum zone.
 
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Stu10

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Stu 10 - You’ve misread what I have written. The point I was making was that an offence happened while the ball had crossed the plane. I never mentioned anything about it being in touch. We take a knock-on from the point of the knock on (offence) and not where the ball lands. I am arguing that the knock-on while the ball had crossed the plane meant that it had to be a lineout. You do not have in the law book for such a situation a position for the scrum. The referee just made it up on the day.
Anyway, in my opinion the video shows a forward pass and not a knock-on. He grabbed hold of it and threw it back into play.

Looking at law 18.2.c, if the ball was directed forward when a player jumps from the playing area and knocks the ball back into the playing area, do you award a lineout or a scrum? For me, the ball is not in touch, therefore I would award a scrum.

The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if: A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.

IMHO, the ball is not in touch, therefore I would award a scrum for the knock-on.
 

Balones

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If something is not covered by law I would tend to go along with whatever the referee decides. I think 18.2.c when contrived did not account for such a scenario that we have discussed. I’m not against a scrum but in this case the non-offending side went for a lineout and I would also support that because of ‘intention’ by the law makers and not actually the non-legalese ‘letter‘ which we have to deal with.
 

Balones

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RFU feedback. Team of 4 got it wrong. It should have been a line out, but once the line out isn’t given, it should have been the end of the game and not a scrum. So Foley sort of got the right decision but through the wrong methodology.

Expect formal clarification later in the week.
Well I’ve not seen any formal clarification. Has anybody?
 

Phil E


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At the end of the day, whatever you decide in these weird and wonderful rare situations, just make your decision confidently and everyone will go along with you. No one else knows the correct decision for sure, so they will look at you to make one.
 

Balones

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The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if: A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.


This doesn’t actually apply because the player was in touch to start with and then tried to get back into the field of play. He didn’t jump from the field of play.
 

Stu10

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The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if: A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.


This doesn’t actually apply because the player was in touch to start with and then tried to get back into the field of play. He didn’t jump from the field of play.

This text is law 18.2.c, which I totally agree does not apply to the OP... I raised this different scenario to understand if you would give a scrum or line-out for a knock-on beyond the plane of touch when all other requirements of law 18.2.c are met.

You earlier implied that a knock-on after the ball had crossed the plane of touch had to be a lineout, but I think this less ambiguous example (compared to OP) that I present leans towards the scrum being the correct decision because the only offence is clearly a knock-on, but this may again be down to personal judgement as indicated by @Phil E
 

Arabcheif

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I'm in 2 minds with this one.... 1 thought is the offence happened prior to the 80 mins. Therefor you go back and allow the scrum for the knock-on (based on the info given that the officials deems the that ball never went in touch). The time that the ref blows the whistle is irrelevent as the offence happened before time was up.

On the flip side, after playing advantage or if foul play has been picked up by an AR/TMO and a YC is issued, the 10 mins is taken from the time after the advantage has ended (if played) and not the offense time. So there seems to be precedent supporting the side that say time up.

As we've discussed, some have said that there's nothing in Law to allow the play to go back to the (Scrum) offence if advantage ends after the 80 mins. But I don't think there's anything stopping the play to go back to allow the scrum to be taken. My interpretation is that the scrum is awarded for an offence. The offence has happened before time is up, it seems fair to me to complete the scrum. Go play the advantage then blow if there is none and end the game seems a bit like "gotcha" refereeing.

For those that say the grass routes refs don't check their watches as they may miss something. We all miss tones of things. A quick glance during a tackle right after contact has been made is unlikely to make you miss anything else. Especially if you know it's coming up to the end of the game so you know if a scrum offence happens before or after 80 mins. If its 81/92 mins then you're playing too much advantage for the knock on was after 80 mins.
 
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