[Law] Scrum ends

[crossref]

This was posed to me by a scrum half yesterday

If the ball is clearly behind the locks and at the #8 feet, and the #8 is not bound properly (hands only)...

then is the scrum over ?

 

[didds]

see posts passim about the same topic

didds

 

[crossref]

Really ?
Obviously not paying enough attention :-(

 

[didds]

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...hands-on-What-should-you-do&highlight=unbound

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20514-When-is-the-No8-fair-game&highlight=unbound

 

[ChrisR]

2017 Law 20.10 Ending the scrum
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball , the scrum ends.

2018 Law 19 Ending a scrum
b. When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that
player or is played by that team’s scrum-half.

More subtle wording changes '17 to '18.

I know it must be there but I can't find any reference that requires players to remain bound until the scrum ends or, 2018 Laws, prohibits the hindmost player from picking up the ball prior to unbinding.

Clearly the scrum hasn't ended until the ball is picked up but where is the violation of law for the #8 binding only with hands?

 

[beckett50]

This goes to the basis that are no new Laws in the simplification re-write to the Laws.

The 2018 version states:

• All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

so if the 8 is not bound with at least one arm then he is unbound and not part of the scrum and seeing as the ball is probably beyond the feet of the two locks then the ball is out.

 

[Dickie E]

so if the 8 is not bound with at least one arm then he is unbound and not part of the scrum and seeing as the ball is probably beyond the feet of the two locks then the ball is out.

But if #8 releases his bind and fails to pick up the ball, isn't that an offence in its own right? Ie scrum ending or not is a moot question

 

[ChrisR]

. . . . even without him picking it up? I agree with you on this but both '17 & '18 explicitly state 'picked up'.

 

[Dickie E]

I know it must be there but I can't find any reference that requires players to remain bound until the scrum ends

either can I :shrug:

 

[ChrisR]

This raises the following:

If the ball is under the locks feet can the #8 unbind first before he retrieves the ball?

 

[Dickie E]

This raises the following:

If the ball is under the locks feet can the #8 unbind first before he retrieves the ball?

Yes ... not sure how he could do otherwise.

What he can't do is unbind, then not pick the ball up.

 

[crossref]

so I think the answer to my OP question is that the scrum is not over, but #8 is committing a PK offence by not binding properly.

The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

 

[Flish]

so I think the answer to my OP question is that the scrum is not over, but #8 is committing a PK offence by not binding properly.

[LAWS]All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm Sanctionenalty.[/LAWS]

I had this yesterday, or similar, 8 unbound, placed hands on ball at locks feet, then seemed to change his mind and went to rebound again. I gave PK against.

 

[beckett50]

This raises the following:

If the ball is under the locks feet can the #8 unbind first before he retrieves the ball?

Not a problem at all, seeing as the Law clearly states he only needs to bind with ONE arm. So, he releases one arm and reaches forward to pick up the ball from the feet of the locks.

 

[Nigib]

Not a problem at all, seeing as the Law clearly states he only needs to bind with ONE arm. So, he releases one arm and reaches forward to pick up the ball from the feet of the locks.

Surely as soon as he picks up the ball, the scrum is over? And if he remains bound then his players in the scrum are obstructing? I would try and manage the situation by either calling the ball out or use it. I can't see how this is tactically useful, as the oppo 9 is usually waiting to go for the ball at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

We all agree that the no8 can attempt to pick the ball out of the scrum now.
What if he has a full arm bind with one arm and picks the ball up with the other, scrum over?
This has happened to me a few times and that's what I've called

 

[OB..]

We all agree that the no8 can attempt to pick the ball out of the scrum now.
What if he has a full arm bind with one arm and picks the ball up with the other, scrum over?
This has happened to me a few times and that's what I've called

Agreed. Otherwise it is handling in the scrum.

 

[ChrisR]

I think the law mod that allows the #8 to retrieve the ball from under the locks feet is expecting the #8 to unbind first. Staying bound with one arm and scooping up the ball has to be handling in the scrum.

 

[Camquin]

If the scrum has ended it is obstruction from the players in front.

 

[crossref]

Most of the posts on the thread are focused on the situation where the 8 picks up the ball, and remain bound

I was more asking about the reverse .. he is not binding properly and the ball is at his feet