Scrum sequence change coming?

FKlopper

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Looks like the IRB have realised that scrums have become too messy and take too long in the game now.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2666061.htm

Re: Scrumming mess.
Has the notion of eliminating the 'hit' part of the scrum engagement been dismissed? It seems to me that slightly wrong angles or sightly mistimed engagement has massive effect when there are such incredible forces as there are at the impact of current scrum engagements.

What is the problem with a 'tug-of-war' style start to the scrum? The scrums come together without a 'hit', get their binding and footing right without having to cope with tons of force at the same time, then have a full on pushing contest as the ball is introduced?


André Watson
: Hi David,
The scrum is constantly under review and very difficult to get right all the time, every time. The ‘fold-in’ scrum as you describe will be trialled after next year's World Cup.

Kind regards,
André Watson
 

Bryan


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You've got to be f**kin kidding me.

Ian, can you please explain how depowering the hit will have little, if any effect, if props still continue to short arm bind on their opponent?

I have no problem with the hit, provided teams arent pushing until the ball is in, and provided props are still binding adequately on their opponent.
 

The Fat


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Can't see that depowering the hit/engagement will be successful.
Imagine folding in, then having the two packs reposition to prepare for the shove, then ref to get everything square and stable etc etc etc. At some stage the packs will have to power up and equalise so that each pack is ready to shove once the SH throws in the ball. This will be a nightmare and will be one step away from those ladies social meetings that Rugby League call scrums.
Tweak the CTPE sequence to cut down the length of time between C & E and the world will be fine.
 

Ian_Cook


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You've got to be f**kin kidding me.

Ian, can you please explain how depowering the hit will have little, if any effect, if props still continue to short arm bind on their opponent?

Huh? Why are asking me. I am not advocating that!
 

crossref


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Crouch
Touch
Engage

might solve everything.
- the 'pause' is redundant anyway... they are already paused, waiting for the E
- three steps rather than four means less likely to establish a rythm of calls, with the props anticipating the E
 

Ian_Cook


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Crouch
Touch
Engage

might solve everything.
- the 'pause' is redundant anyway... they are already paused, waiting for the E
- three steps rather than four means less likely to establish a rythm of calls, with the props anticipating the E

:clap::clap::clap:

I have been advocating this for about 18 months. That is what we used experimentally (with iRB approval) in the Air New Zealand Cup in 2009, and it was an outstanding success. Hardly any collapses or resets.

It should only take five years for the iRB to collate the data and another three to make a decision. CTE could be in pace in time for the 2019 RWC in Japan.... if we're lucky. :rolleyes:
 

FlipFlop


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the problem is that some refs would say crouchtouchengage

the pause was put in the enforce a pause, so those refs would say crouchtouchpauseengage.

the problem came about now because refs who say crouch..touch..pause..engage started to say crouch......touch........pause........engage

If you get my drift.....
 

crossref


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guidance to refs now commonly lists about 100 things to look for between each stage (binding, positioning, square etc etc) so I think that refs would naturally pause (NB unspoken) while they think about at least some of the things they might be checking for between TOUCH and ENGAGE
 

Taff


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The scrums are undoubtedly a mess and seem to be getting worse. And lets be blunt watching endless collpased scrums isn't just dangerous, they're boring as hell. :(

One possibility may be to get the ref to control when the ball gets thrown in by the SH. Ie Crouch, Touch ... Engage ..... In. This would stop the fannying around with early shoves etc as they offending pack would know that if they had an early shove, they would have to come back before the ref asked for the ball to be thrown. Personally I would also ban skin tight jerseys for all props - there just isn't enough to grab onto.

It may be worth thinking about. :chin:
 

OB..


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One possibility may be to get the ref to control when the ball gets thrown in by the SH. Ie Crouch, Touch ... Engage ..... In. This would stop the fannying around with early shoves etc as they offending pack would know that if they had an early shove, they would have to come back before the ref asked for the ball to be thrown. Personally I would also ban skin tight jerseys for all props - there just isn't enough to grab onto.
That is certainly what I have been suggesting for some time.

Folding in would have to be followed by some equivalent of "take the strain" to make sure the scrum is primed before the scrum half can throw the ball in.
 

PaulDG


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Crouch
Touch
Engage

might solve everything.

The words aren't the problem and never were.

Saying "pause" adds what, half a second at most to the sequence?

The problem is that both sides are trying to get an advantage before the ball comes in (and don't really care if they do that legally or not).

Words don't matter. Actions do.

Now.. How to control those...?
 

andyscott


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It will come as there will be a knee jerk reaction.

I am going to use really slow CTPE today and I will report back on how many resets i get ;)

I bet hardly any, because my players wont fcuk on like the international players do.

Whether we like it or not the SH teams will make us all go to league passive scrums. Its gonna happen.:rolleyes:
 

crossref


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The words aren't the problem and never were.

Saying "pause" adds what, half a second at most to the sequence?

The problem is that both sides are trying to get an advantage before the ball comes in (and don't really care if they do that legally or not).

Words don't matter. Actions do.

Now.. How to control those...?

i agree that the words used in sequence can't cure the problem, but they can make it worse -- and i think that PAUSE, as a command possibly did make it worse.
 

Davet

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The issue is down to the failure to get scrums square and steady before the ball comes in - it already law, we should simply enforce it.

If that's got right then getting physical domination at the hit becomes irrelevant. That cuts out the need to drop the scrum if you lose that instant battle and are uncomfortable.

So the "Pause" needs to come after the engage...

Then the ball needs to be fed straight,
 

Bryan


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Bryan said:
Ian, can you please explain how depowering the hit will have little, if any effect, if props still continue to short arm bind on their opponent?

Ian said:
Huh? Why are asking me. I am not advocating that!

For once I wasnt being sarcastic, I was looking for some educational comments. We both agree that depowering the hit wont have any effect, but I just figured I'd provide an introduction for another rant.

If the scrum issues were happening at the lower end of the game, we'd probably use a different cadence or blame it on poor skill, or apply new laws to remove the element of "contest" from the scrum. However, b/c it's happening at the top end of the game that everyone watches, I get the impression that the law lords are going to keep tinkering with it.

My concern is that there will be a rush into a new trialed method that might have its merits but will get tossed aside due to the lawmakers looking for the smoking-gun to fix the problem.

Oh, and where are they going to trial this fold-in scrum? I suggest: Argentina, Italy, or Cornwall.
 

chopper15

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:clap::clap::clap:
It should only take five years for the iRB to collate the data and another three to make a decision. CTE could be in pace in time for the 2019 RWC in Japan.... if we're lucky. :rolleyes:

I wonder if they ever try their theories out in practice before they issue a directive?:sad:

No problems in that respect back in the '50s when we didn't have to bind and could use the loose arm to gain support from the ground or your thigh for that extra shove when the ball was put in . . . straight.:hap:
 

ddjamo


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I still think BCM's view is a very valid one too. if the opposition hooker has no chance at winning ball the hit and early shove are the only way.

when is the last time you have seen one taken off the head on tv?
 

Rit Hinners

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No one can take against the head when the feed is a crooked as it consistently is.
 

OB..


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No one can take against the head when the feed is a crooked as it consistently is.

Even if it were millimetrically straight, the loosehead and timing is such an advantage that competing for the ball (instead of for control of the scrum) would be unusual. The main advantage of forcing the hooker to hook is that briefly the opposition have 8 against 7.5.
 
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