Second tier 6Nations

[scrumpox2]

The great news about Argentina being added to the 3N made me wonder how long before the 5th nation would be added ... could the Islands combination of Tonga/Samoa/Fiji work?

Closer to home though, why don't the 6N introduce relegation and promotion between the two tiers, why the closed shop? Obviously this requires that the turkeys vote for Xmas but if relegation/promotion were not automatic, perhaps requiring a playoff between the respective wooden spoon holders and champions it would maintain quality and prevent sides yoyoing between the two tiers?

Have to confess though, as a travelling fan, it would be great to add a new venue ... Edinburgh has been done to death and a total mess with the tram works ...

 

[OB..]

Closer to home though, why don't the 6N introduce relegation and promotion between the two tiers, why the closed shop? Obviously this requires that the turkeys vote for Xmas but if relegation/promotion were not automatic, perhaps requiring a playoff between the respective wooden spoon holders and champions it would maintain quality and prevent sides yoyoing between the two tiers?

It's an idea I have been touting for some time. I would weight the play-off in favour of the incumbents by allowing them to play at home. The match would have to take place soon after the 6N so that everybody would know who was playing where next season.

 

[Ian_Cook]

The great news about Argentina being added to the 3N made me wonder how long before the 5th nation would be added ... could the Islands combination of Tonga/Samoa/Fiji work?

The combined team would not be a viable option. PIRA is not a going concern at the moment.

However, one of the ideas being touted was for the highest placed National team each year's Pacific Nations Championship (which is played immediately after the S14) would qualify to play as the fifth team in a SH Five Nations (the Junior ABs and Australia "A" would not be eligible of course).

The problems are

1. We play the SANZAR Championship as a Home/Away competititon to maximise the revenue, so a fifth team would mean extending the competititon to about 11 weeks, running well into the NH Club season, and this leads to;

2. Releases from NH clubs, particularly the French Clubs, for Pacific Islands players (should they qualify) are unlikely to be forthcoming.

3. It is likely that the fifth team will be horribly overmatched, particularly if it is Japan or Tonga.

 

[Dixie]

It's an idea I have been touting for some time. I would weight the play-off in favour of the incumbents by allowing them to play at home. The match would have to take place soon after the 6N so that everybody would know who was playing where next season.

I much prefer the 6N to 5N (unbalanced) or 4N (limited). So the second tier would probably involve the likes of Russia, Georgia, Romania, Portugal, Spain, & Germany on current rankings. The first three of these (ranked 16th, 17th and 19th respectively) might give Italy (12th) and Scotland (10th) a decent game, but would Russia's climate allow it to host three games during the 6N window?

Worth a good look at, however.

 

[FlipFlop]

2nd tier is currently:

Russia, Spain, Germany, Georgia, Romania, Portugal.

They play in Fira-AER ENC division 1. It is a promotion/relegation with teh rest of Europe.

I'm guessing that the worry about promotion/relegating from this division is that the team going up would most likely spend a year of getting thrashed. Plus teh ERC competition is held over 2 years on a home and away basis - to minimise travel costs in any one year.

 

[scrumpox2]

I'm guessing that the worry about promotion/relegating from this division is that the team going up would most likely spend a year of getting thrashed. Plus teh ERC competition is held over 2 years on a home and away basis - to minimise travel costs in any one year.

Well, that's a risk but:-
1. if they had defeated the wooden spoonists from the season before in a playoff they would be there on merit. Nobody would ask Scotland (eg) to leave the 6N because there was a fear they might get thrashed.
2. which of those second tier sides would refuse the opportunity to play in the top tier because of the fear of being thrashed?

I can't believe it's an organisational problem, plenty of sports have promotion and relegation and the logistical challenge of sorting out fixtures for a season which starts in a few months' time.
The turkeys have to vote for xmas, that's the problem.

One downside of relegation is the scenario where one nation, knowing they are likely to finish as wooden spoonists, fields a weakened side in the final game so that they are as strong as possible for the forthcoming playoff.

As OB said, the playoff would have to be very soon after the tournament ended, becuase of logistical reasons ... that playoff would also I guess be outside the current window for international fixtures.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I believe there are three issues at play here

a) finance (TV rights, match tickets, hospitality & merchandising revenue) is crucial to all the 6N participants. This funding creates a closed loop of protection, which scrumpox rightly calls "turkeys' voting for Xmas"

b) the level of play, infrastructure, depth of players, 'professionalism' of rugby generally in all the second tier is a major barrier. Argentina have suffered due to their Union being amateur and the invite to join Tri-Nations is contingent on that changing (rapidly !) to a professional set up. Italy took years to get to 6N place, and even now are not able to compete in every match as well as they might wish. The likes of Georgia, Romania, Russia and even Portugal / Spain might compete in one off matches but they cannot handle a full 6N programme at that level.

c) also the financial position of all these unions is often perilous - remember the last World Cup when Georgia has no kit and a kind supplier stepped in to help. Or Portugal at recent RW7s in London had just two sets of kit to last, and were staying here on a strict budget - a Hampshire colleage is their RFU Liaison Officer when they come and he is very clear that they (and many of the others) run on a very tight budget compared to the Big Countries.

These second tier countries need serious funding to get to the stage where they can break through, compete and thus get access to the TV and other revenue - chicken & egg. Plus if they join it may slightly increase the overall money pot, but in reality could dilute the overall shares.