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SH pulling the ball with their hands in a long ruck

breako


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Some SH's use their feet to pull a ball back from a long ruck, some use their feet only.
Recently, a french game, a french ref said the ball was out when the ball was pulled back with the hands (sorry no clip). Is it?
 

Balones

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It is something that tends to managed rather than penalised or or deemed out by a lot of referees. A couple of seasons ago referees were advised that the only way they could guide the ball back at a long ruck was by their foot and not hands. The reason being that by using hands it confuses opposition as to whether it is out. Some referees are more stringent about it than others. I cańt remember any clear guidance about what a referee should do if it is handled back, but it could be argued that it is handling in a ruck but then again that is a law that seems to be much ignored nowadays by its strict interpretation. Scrum halves have for some time been allowed to dig the ball out if it has been stuck and that is a good thing but nowadays there seems to be much more latitude fir other players as well. (I’ll get off soap box now.:))
 

Decorily

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In my opinion if the ball has been won and the ruck phase is effectively over then I'm not particularly interested in how the ball is moved.

Get on with the game and don't get caught up in technicalities!
 

Shelflife


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If they want to make a caterpillar ruck then they shouldn't be allowed to use their hands to get the ball to the end of that ruck.

As soon as the ball is available the ref should call use it, The SH then has 5 secs to play it, if he wants to use it up rolling the ball with his foot, fine but I wouldnt allow him to play it with his hands after he contrived a situation to help him make it easier to clear the ball.

Manage once, penalise after
 

Dickie E


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when the ball is, or is not, out of a ruck, maul or scrum is such a fundamental part of rugby, that it is hard to fathom why it is left to individual referees' interpretation. "hands on", "lifted up", "bird could shit on it", "outside rubber band" etc, etc ... SMH
 

Phil E


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when the ball is, or is not, out of a ruck, maul or scrum is such a fundamental part of rugby, that it is hard to fathom why it is left to individual referees' interpretation. "hands on", "lifted up", "bird could shit on it", "outside rubber band" etc, etc ... SMH
I am finding some of these definitions very hard to manage in a game situation.
The birds are never around when you need them and even if they fly over they steadfastly refuse to have a shit.
The rubber bands big enough to go round a normal ruck are very hard to get hold of, and even harder to get round all the players who just won't stand still while you stretch it round them. Then there's always some clumsy prop who snaps it.
It's alright for the top flight with their trained birds and rubber teams, but down in the weeds, all on your own, it's increasingly difficult!
:rolleyes:
 

Zebra1922


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I penalised a SH recently for pulling the ball back with his hands through a caterpillar. I had warned him earlier in the game not to use his hands to do this, he chose to ignore me so was penalised.

I’m happy for the SH to dig around with his hands, but if the ball is clearly won and on the floor, he shouldn’t use his hands at that point to get the ball In the ideal position.
 

Decorily

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I penalised a SH recently for pulling the ball back with his hands through a caterpillar. I had warned him earlier in the game not to use his hands to do this, he chose to ignore me so was penalised.

I’m happy for the SH to dig around with his hands, but if the ball is clearly won and on the floor, he shouldn’t use his hands at that point to get the ball In the ideal position.
But if the ball is "clearly won" what difference does it make whether they use their hands or not? Contest over ....get on with the game!
 

crossref


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But if the ball is "clearly won" what difference does it make whether they use their hands or not? Contest over ....get on with the game!
But a caterpillar ruck is not getting on with the game ...

For me I still think the solution might be to change "use it" from meaning 5s to meaning "without delay". A simple change which should hurry them up considerably
 

Jz558


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The irony for me in all this is that most rucks in the professional game involve several players adopting a position where it is impossible to ruck the ball backwards so rather than enforcing the law, professional referees evolved a practive whereby the 9 is allowed to dig the ball out to keep the game going. In the one area of the ruck where we actually have players on their feet and capable of rucking the ball backwards we allow the 9 to walk forward to an offside position and play the ball!
 

Zebra1922


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But if the ball is "clearly won" what difference does it make whether they use their hands or not? Contest over ....get on with the game!
A fair point, but we allow the 9 to handle the ball, and even move offside, when we don’t allow that to other players. I understand about keeping the game flowing and whether it really matters, but for me I’m trying to make sure they don’t take the p*ss as they do it.

I don’t penalise it straight away. If I’m not happy I’ll warn the SH, and penalise if it happens again. It’s usually only when you have a form of caterpillar ruck where it’s a problem.
 

Shelflife


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But if the ball is "clearly won" what difference does it make whether they use their hands or not? Contest over ....get on with the game!
If the ball is clearly won then the ref should call use it. The SH now has 5 secs to use it

If the SH then wants to create an ideal situation so that he can easily clear the ball.

We shouldn't allow the SH to move the ball with his hands in order to facilitate this.

I want them to do as you say "get on with the game" facilitating them to create a boring caterpillar doesn't do this imo
 

Decorily

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If the ball is clearly won then the ref should call use it. The SH now has 5 secs to use it

If the SH then wants to create an ideal situation so that he can easily clear the ball.

We shouldn't allow the SH to move the ball with his hands in order to facilitate this.

I want them to do as you say "get on with the game" facilitating them to create a boring caterpillar doesn't do this imo
I'm not saying 'clearly won' and available are the same thing.
 

Stu10

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I think forming a long caterpillar and allowing the scrum half to more quickly roll the ball back with his hands to more of those 5 seconds is spent will the ball nicely presented at the back of the caterpillar is letting the scrum half have his cake and eat it... when the ball is available the SH should choose to use his time making the caterpillar longer and having to roll the ball back with his foot, or uses the whole 5 seconds to focus on his kick. IMHO allowing SH to roll the ball back quickly and more easily by hand is facilitating/enabling longer caterpillars... it that really what we want?
 
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