[Law] Simplified Laws .. Player on the Ground

crossref


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Well, here's another change introduced by the new Laws :biggrin:

[LAWS]3. A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
a. Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the
ball.
b. Not play the ball.
c. Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent[/LAWS]
 

Phil E


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I would say that's more of a clarification than a change?
And a welcome one.
 

Ian_Cook


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Well, here's another change introduced by the new Laws :biggrin:

[LAWS]3. A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
a. Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the
ball.
b. Not play the ball.
c. Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent[/LAWS]


Its not a change (none of these clearer laws are changes) its how its always been.

It certainly puts an end to some of the bollocks being talked on this forum; players on the ground are out of the game... its definitive, no ifs, no buts, no maybes, and absolutely NO wiggle room.

ETA:

Law Simplification Group: Mark Harrington (World Rugby Head of Technical Services and club head coach), Tappe Henning (Scottish Rugby Union Referee Manager and former international referee), Dr Ross Tucker (sports scientist), Rod Hill (New Zealand Rugby Referee Manager), Chris Cuthbertson (Chairman RFU Laws Committee), James Fitzgerald (World Rugby Media Manager and former international referee), Adam Pearson (web designer/illustrator).


As you will recall, this is the guy I spoke to about this very issue some time back. Looks like he was in no doubt then.
 
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Dickie E


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It certainly puts an end to some of the bollocks being talked on this forum;

Well done, Mr Leopard strikes again. You really put in some effort to make yourself unlikable, don't you?
 
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Not Kurt Weaver


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[LAWS]3. A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
a. Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the
ball.
b. Not play the ball.
c. Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent[/LAWS]

Its not a change (none of these clearer laws are changes) its how its always been.

It certainly puts an end to some of the bollocks being talked on this forum; players on the ground are out of the game... its definitive, no ifs, no buts, no maybes, and absolutely NO wiggle room.




As you will recall, this is the guy I spoke to about this very issue some time back. Looks like he was in no doubt then.

I got one wiggle/question for Ian. Can a player on the ground without the ball reach out and apply downward pressure to score a try or make a touchdown?

Ian, can you make more definitive for me? Now that the mode of play that previously covered this is gone.
Any player may ground the ball in in-goal.
 
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SimonSmith


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My bet would be:
1. Player already on the ground may not.
2. Player may go to ground to play the ball.
 

Ian_Cook


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Well done, Mr Leopard strikes again. You really put in some effort to make yourself unlikable, don't you?

Pot, meet kettle!

PS: FYI, internet forums are not popularity contests, and even if you think they are, I'm not in them to win one. I don't give a rat's arse whether people like me or not... never have, and never will.
 
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Dickie E


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I don't give a rat's arse whether people like me or not... never have, and never will.

that's just sad but explains a lot. You have my sympathy
 

Ian_Cook


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That's an interesting phrase...

In post 3, I made a straight-forward statement; a restatement if you will, of the position I have always held regarding players on the ground. I wasn't me who personalized the issue with snide barbs. It was the usual suspect, true to form.

Anyway, back to the subject.

These simplified Laws are not changes to the Laws. They are, in effect, a large series of Clarifications

From the WR Website

"Making rugby's laws easier to understand for all is the objective behind the simplified law book, which will be introduced globally from 1 January, 2018.

Approved at the November World Rugby Council meeting, the simplified law book is designed to make the laws easier to understand while not altering the meaning of them or how the game is played."



The fact that the 2017 Laws and the 2018 Clarified Laws will run side by side shows this.
 
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Ian_Cook


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I got one wiggle/question for Ian. Can a player on the ground without the ball reach out and apply downward pressure to score a try or make a touchdown?

If the player goes to ground for the purpose of gathering the ball... yes

[LAWS]1. Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must
immediately:
b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or
[/LAWS]

If the player is already on the ground, he is out of the game....so no

3. A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
b. Not play the ball.


Ian, can you make more definitive for me?

How definitive would you like it to be? Is "A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game" not definitive enough for you?


Now that the mode of play that previously covered this is gone.
Any player may ground the ball in in-goal.

Did it occur to you that this might have been removed so as not to conflict with Law 13 (ex 14)? After all, the stated purpose of this simplification of the Laws is to give us a Law book that is "more logically laid out, clearer in its explanations and, with various repetitions and contradictions removed"
 
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Ian_Cook


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I also note that the Law Drafters have included an "Itoje" clause.

[LAWS]The game is played only by players who are on their feet.
1. Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must
immediately:
a. Get up with the ball; or
b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or
c. Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty[/LAWS]

What Itoje did in England v Italy would definitely be a PK infringment of this Law.

(I wonder how recently this bit was added? :chin: )
 

didds

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Its not a change (none of these clearer laws are changes) its how its always been.

well its clear from discussions here that it isn't always what some have believed. Including elite end referees [usual caveats] - witness the Jonny May (?) jump-touch ball -land on back - ball drops into arms - pass away - no penalty recently etc etc etc).

But this does at least put a line in the sand at last.

I now await it to be totally ignored in elite circles creating a cascade like replication...

didds
 

Ian_Cook


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well its clear from discussions here that it isn't always what some have believed. Including elite end referees [usual caveats] - witness the Jonny May (?) jump-touch ball -land on back - ball drops into arms - pass away - no penalty recently etc etc etc).

But this does at least put a line in the sand at last.

I now await it to be totally ignored in elite circles creating a cascade like replication...

didds

Elite end referees get things wrong all the time... they just don't do it as often as the ones down in the weeds.

However, on every occasion when people higher up the chain have been asked, it has always been clearly annunciated - off your feet, out of the game!
 

Pinky


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Ian, I think NKW might be asking for your view on whether a player off their feet can ground the ball in goal for a try, given the clarification of off-feetness, and the apparent contradiction with the statement that it is not about altering the meaning of the laws or how the game is played. In my view, in-goal has long been treated differently to in the field of play and I think most would agree that off feet is different there from in the field of play (whatever you think about off feet out of the game) and if there is not meant to be any change to how the game is played I still think a player off their feet can ground the ball for a try. But that may not be agreed by all?
 

crossref


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Ian, I think NKW might be asking for your view on whether a player off their feet can ground the ball in goal for a try, given the clarification of off-feetness, and the apparent contradiction with the statement that it is not about altering the meaning of the laws or how the game is played. In my view, in-goal has long been treated differently to in the field of play and I think most would agree that off feet is different there from in the field of play (whatever you think about off feet out of the game) and if there is not meant to be any change to how the game is played I still think a player off their feet can ground the ball for a try. But that may not be agreed by all?

Under the existing Lawbook I would allow it
Under the DRAFT new Laws , in the version posted, I would give a PK against
 

Thunderhorse1986


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I also note that the Law Drafters have included an "Itoje" clause.

[LAWS]The game is played only by players who are on their feet.
1. Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must
immediately:
a. Get up with the ball; or
b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or
c. Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty[/LAWS]

What Itoje did in England v Italy would definitely be a PK infringment of this Law.

(I wonder how recently this bit was added? :chin: )

So to clarify - Red kick ball forward, behind blue 15, ball ends up close to the touchline, not far from the Blue defending try line. Blue player, chasing back and across, gets there before other Red and Blue players but rather than going to ground to collect the ball, slides at it and kicks it out of play. I would (assuming no one close enough to make it "dangerous") have previously allowed this as a defensive play. Now it is definitely a penalty.

I am happy with the clarification but is has changed my perspective of something (even if not a true Law Changfe - maybe I was getting it wrong all this time). Basically a player can NEVER go to ground to kick the ball.
 

didds

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another itoje example then - his goalkeeper block thing against Samoa - leaving aside whether feet first is right or not and ONLY looking at the feet/lower legs thing

1) does the ball hitting his feet constitute a kick and thus PK?
2) If he dived so his face, belly and shins faced his own tryline and the ball hit his heels, that would not be a kick and not a PK?
3) He is on the ground (eg post tackle) and in the act of getting up the kicked ball hits his shin/foot ... PK?

didds
 
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