"simulation" in the professional game

shebeen

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I'm referring indirectly to the Rugby championship game 3 Aus vs RSA where Gold9 fake injury reaction on 27 aug 2022, which may or may not have influenced the decision of the referee and TMO to award a YC to Green9 (the internet has two main opinions if you're wondering), but it's a symptom of a wider problem.
The Aus team itself had a very public reaction to a similiar incident in July 2021, where a red card was eventually overturned in a hearing - https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...harge-and-diving-scourge-20210718-p58aq1.html




Taking a step back here, Cricket has laws, but also this preamble:
Cricket owes much of its appeal and enjoyment to the fact that it should be played not only according to the Laws, but also within the Spirit of Cricket. The major responsibility for ensuring fair play rests with the captains, but extends to all players, match officials and, especially in junior cricket, teachers, coaches and parents.
Respect is central to the Spirit of Cricket.
Respect your captain, team-mates, opponents and the authority of the umpires.
Play hard and play fair.
Accept the umpire’s decision.
Create a positive atmosphere by your own conduct, and encourage others to do likewise.
Show self-discipline, even when things go against you.
Congratulate the opposition on their successes, and enjoy those of your own team.
Thank the officials and your opposition at the end of the match, whatever the result.
Cricket is an exciting game that encourages leadership, friendship and teamwork, which brings together people from different nationalities, cultures and religions, especially when played within the Spirit of Cricket.


Our rugby laws leave it to a single sentence.
9 FOUL PLAY
27Misconduct
  1. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship.
  2. Players must respect the authority of the referee. They must not dispute the referee’s decisions. They must stop playing immediately when the referee blows the whistle to stop play. Sanction: Penalty.

We do not want to end up like football, but with cards being issued with much lower thresholds, the incentive is there to force them. Are we at the beginning of a slippery slope where action is required from WR, or is this a one off incident that will see a correction?



THE PLAYERS
 

crossref


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We actually do have a Law 9.7.c

Players must not
Do anything that may lead the match officials to consider that an opponent has committed an infringement.

However, Nick White did not commit an offence under 9.7.c because they decided that de klerk had indeed committed an offence.. a YC offence in fact
 
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SimonSmith


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You're right, and wrong, at the same time. Historical context needs to be applied here.

There was a game where White was choked on the ground and the MOs didn;t see it to deal with it. Darcy Swain was an idiot for throwing a headbutt - but of the hair pulling had been spottend and handled...

I suspect that the edict has been handed down that MOs can;t always be trusted to spot the first act of foul play. If they don't make sure you do something to bring the TMO into it.

As grass roots referees, how many times are we told to be sure get the first offence, and not the second or third?

I don't blame Paul Williams; there's a lot to watch, and this is I think the first time I think Ive seen two 9s dicking about at the back of ths scrum. He missed it. But an act of foul play had occurred, close to the goal line. Had play continued, it was going to be an attacking scrum 5. I'm not a fan of theatrics, but I can understand White's decision making here,
 

Jarrod Burton


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While the flop was in poor form, there was an infringement that occurred - de Klerk swung his arm, failed his aim and missed the ball, hitting White in the face with low impact, but minor skills failures during tackles can now result in a RC under the Head Contact Framework so its not inconceivable that de Klerk would be penalised. The flop after needs to be removed from the game, but White has been targeted in the past by foul play at his head and his reactions to those lead to him being penalised rather than the first player so flopping and making the infringement obvious at least prevents him from being penalised given there was clear head contact.
 
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Marc Wakeham


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So many commentators (South African mainly??) have missed the important fact that FDK committed an act of foul play. That deserved action. White's actions should not detract from that.

However White should have been carded for his actions and the PK against FDK should stand.
 

shebeen

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We actually do have a Law 9.7.c

Players must not
Do anything that may lead the match officials to consider that an opponent has committed an infringement.

However, Nick White did not commit an offence under 9.7.c because they decided that de klerk had indeed committed an offence.. a YC offence in fact
Correct, I missed that - I'm glad it's there already.

but surely you're misreading this then?
If Gold9 played on (whistle hadn't blown yet) then nothing would have happened here?
We can disagree on the act of foul play by Green9, but surely no one thinks Gold9 was actually injured? He fell down theatrically as if hit by a sniper, and then lay down for the medics to treat him. He didn't go for a HIA either and came out for the second half.

The actions of Gold9 made it look like a mike tyson haymaker had been landed, when it was a glancing blow without much force, this directly lead match officials as considered the infringement. If this is seen as a good move, then we're definitely on that slippery slope to Real Madrid level histrionics. FIFA could have stopped this when Maradonna did his thing in the 80s, now it's a part of their game. I'd be disappointed if it goes the same way.
 

crossref


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Correct, I missed that - I'm glad it's there already.

but surely you're misreading this then?
If Gold9 played on (whistle hadn't blown yet) then nothing would have happened here?
We can disagree on the act of foul play by Green9, but surely no one thinks Gold9 was actually injured? He fell down theatrically as if hit by a sniper, and then lay down for the medics to treat him. He didn't go for a HIA either and came out for the second half.

The actions of Gold9 made it look like a mike tyson haymaker had been landed, when it was a glancing blow without much force, this directly lead match officials as considered the infringement. If this is seen as a good move, then we're definitely on that slippery slope to Real Madrid level histrionics. FIFA could have stopped this when Maradonna did his thing in the 80s, now it's a part of their game. I'd be disappointed if it goes the same way.
What do you think he should have done? And what would have happened?
 

crossref


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So many commentators (South African mainly??) have missed the important fact that FDK committed an act of foul play. That deserved action. White's actions should not detract from that.

However White should have been carded for his actions and the PK against FDK should stand.
What would you card White for, though ?
 

Marc Wakeham


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Acts contrary to good sportsmanship.
 

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Can’t say I enjoyed Nick White’s display, but I think there is a difference between simulating a fake injury (the soccer player who had the ball kicked at his legs who then grabbed his face and fell to the ground springs to mind) and exaggerating a reaction to an actual offense to get attention and the TMO involved.

I’m still in 2 minds about the YC - I’ve seen more forceful altercations receive less - but I think I would have spoken to White that he didn’t need to make quite such a meal out of it but wouldn’t have penalized him this time.

This is right on the cusp for both the card and the offense so ask me again tomorrow and I may well have a different view...
 

Phil E


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I think social media have penalised White more than the ref could have ever done.
 

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The thing is, if a player is a victim a YC-worthy act of foul play to the head, then I don't see how it can be unsportsmanlike to bring that to the referees attention?
That's a fair point. It is quite a different thing to outright fake an offense, so the question is "how much is too much"? Where does making it clear something improper has happened become milking it?

To me, with the TMO replays I don't think White's (over)reaction swayed the ref, White just made sure it was reviewed. The ref showed some sympathy for FDK in what he was trying to do but made clear that a slap to the face is an offense and off FDK went... Given the feral nature of social media White's damned but at least this way he got the offense sanctioned.

I guess in the land of WRU blazers who write the laws the expectation is that after this event Nick White would soldier on, then inform his captain, who would politely doff their scrumcap and ask the ref to review the footage at his earliest convenience. The offense would be sanctioned and we all carry on. Meanwhile, in the real world, FDK may well have rolled White over, snagged the ball, and released Green to go on to score. The ref would now be thinking "can I really roll it all back for *that*?" and cue the uproar for TMOs ruining the game or Refs not enforcing laws fairly, etc., etc....

Also - is it really anything that new? A quick search of YouTube can find compilations of diving rugby players over the years, and we've certainly seen where it has been pulled up by the ref - Stuart Hogg getting the wrath of Nigel Owens comes to mind. When a particularly obvious example comes up the blow-back seems to be enough to keep a lid on it in the game in general.
 

shebeen

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What do you think he should have done? And what would have happened?
(with the benefit of hindsight) let's look at the two actions separately.
a)Faf's hand - intent was not to strike the player, but a reckless low percentage move anyway. probably a penalty, but if you want to be strict, then YC can be justified and then consistent for the rest of the game.
b)White's playacting. We all know he was not injured, and he didn't play to the whistle. No one else bought it as they all played on. According to the laws, his action is a penalty offence.

So I guess the correct action is a penalty to Yellow + YC to green, reverse the penalty to green. No one is happy, so probably the best result!


holisticly speaking, I don't think White's actions should be rewarded. Aus Rugby made a big fuss over the Koroibete/Jelonsche simulation incident July 2021, it seems they are ok with the shoe being on the other foot. Even though I think a character like Nigel Owens might have made a soundbite response to it, it's an issue for WR, not the MO on the day (hence why I started the thread).
 

Marc Wakeham


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The thing is, if a player is a victim a YC-worthy act of foul play to the head, then I don't see how it can be unsportsmanlike to bring that to the referees attention?
By play acting? We have different standards.
 

shebeen

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The thing is, if a player is a victim a YC-worthy act of foul play to the head, then I don't see how it can be unsportsmanlike to bring that to the referees attention?
This is probably the meat of this incident, it would be very different if the contact was high force.

We stop play when there is a head injury, especially if it is close to the action of play - I don't think anyone has an issue with that.

If someone fakes a head injury, they are forcing the referee's hand. It's a very slippery slope if this is condoned.
 

didds

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Its a no-win scenario.
I dont condone any play acting etc - but had he played on as normal would Aus have been awarded a PK? Would FdK have received a YC?
As FdK got a YC then we must believe his action was foul play.

Would it have been blown/played as such without the silliness?
I dont know how to square that circle if the answer is "probably no" .
 

Locke


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Would it have been blown/played as such without the silliness?
I dont know how to square that circle if the answer is "probably no" .
My view is that you have to accept that a call was missed by the officiating team, like you have to accept it for any other call.
I don’t want any of the dramatic acting in the game, at any level; that’s not our sport.

For me, real time, I didn’t notice anything I would’ve penalized until White fell over in fake agony. After TMO review, I would’ve penalized Faf de Klerk for the hit to the face, and reversed it for White’s unsportsmanlike behavior. I don’t see how de Klerk’ contact rises to the level of YC with the unbelievably low level of force.
 

Dickie E


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I don’t see how de Klerk’ contact rises to the level of YC with the unbelievably low level of force.
its like this. If its head contact & foul play, they start at red card and then mitigate down. But they can only mitigate down by 1 level (ie low force). Therefore a yellow card was inevitable.
 
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