"simulation" in the professional game

Ciaran Trainor


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My personal opinion: Faf's tap was very low danger, PK worthy. White's dying swan was also PK worthy, but not enough to reverse the call on a head contact PK
That's my interpretation too and a quiet word with White in St. Nigel style about soccer!
 

Marc Wakeham


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Soccer-esque diving is when a player gets tackled, no contact is made and they pull their legs up and fall over writhing in agony. White did get hit in the face in this instance and his response wasn't PK worthy under 9.7 as an offence had occurred - otherwise every time someone gets a head knock in a tackle and they stay down you could argue a penalty against them for making the officials consider (which would involve the TMO checking replays) that an offence had occurred. 9.27 is a long bow to draw - does Whites behaviour compare with calling the ref a cheat, pushing a water carrier, abusing the crowd, giving the bird to someone, spitting on a player, rubbing your blood on a player, etc?
Really? Context please!
 

Volun-selected


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Devil’s Advocate hat on… :devilish:

So what *should* White have done? Wait for the whistle (assuming the ref saw it and ignoring that we tell players to always play to the whistle), or then have to wait for a dead ball to ask the captain to ask the ref to review?

And how many phases until the dead ball? If FDK had completed his flattening of White won a turnover and sparked several phases before Green scored, the ref would then have to overturn the try? Cue the “TMO ruining the match” uproar, etc…

Hat off…

Is the trigger here less that White made a big show but the YK? If It had just been a PK would White be receiving this level of scrutiny and Oscar nominations? Is the key, and the concern on simulation, that the histrionics convinced the ref that there was more force involved than there was and got a player sent off?

So did White deceive the ref on the level of force or just draw attention to a PK-worthy offense?
 

BikingBud


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You're right, and wrong, at the same time. Historical context needs to be applied here.

There was a game where White was choked on the ground and the MOs didn;t see it to deal with it. Darcy Swain was an idiot for throwing a headbutt - but of the hair pulling had been spottend and handled...

I suspect that the edict has been handed down that MOs can;t always be trusted to spot the first act of foul play. If they don't make sure you do something to bring the TMO into it.

As grass roots referees, how many times are we told to be sure get the first offence, and not the second or third?

I don't blame Paul Williams; there's a lot to watch, and this is I think the first time I think Ive seen two 9s dicking about at the back of ths scrum. He missed it. But an act of foul play had occurred, close to the goal line. Had play continued, it was going to be an attacking scrum 5. I'm not a fan of theatrics, but I can understand White's decision making here,
Don't remember this then:
 

Jarrod Burton


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Really? Context please!
If a player goes down with an apparent injury from a tackle and doesn't leave the field, how do you know they weren't trying to get something looked at by the TMO? An extension of the logic that White hitting the floor is unsportsman and should be penalised is should we require players who need medical attention on the field after a large tackle or impact to be required to leave the field or risk a PK? I've seen heaps of complaints that the Springboks go down with "injuries" regularly during their recent matches, commonly when they were under the pump and need a momentum change or a breather. Should these all be PKed?
 

Marc Wakeham


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If you suspect that any player is play acting you can sanction them under existing laws. Time wasting / acts contrary to good sportsmanship etc. The laws are there. However, you need to be sure. Use a bit of common sense. I often do n't stop the clock if I suspect that an "injury" is not "kosher". Of course you cpould also deem a player unfit to continue if that player kept needing treatment. Also not all injuries are a result of unfair play. So a player going down could have just twisted an ankle running and is not trying to sugget that FDK had just landed a haymaker.

Common sense and context needs to be applied to our interpretation of the laws.
 

crossref


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It's hard to say someone was 'play-acting' when they are victim of a YC-level act of foul play to the face.

And White's behaviour would be pointless in a community game - if the ref hadn't seen the incident he's not going to penalise it.
White's purpose was to get a TMO involved.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Not really his reaction was totally over the top and akin to a footballers reaction.
 

crossref


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Not really his reaction was totally over the top and akin to a footballers reaction.
9.33 A player who is victim of foul play must react in a manner strictly commensurate with amount of force used, and the nature of injury received. Sanction : Universal approbation
 
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Marc Wakeham


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Ok such blinding insight I could not possibly attempt to keep up with .I'm out. You win let the playacting continue unabated.
 

Zebra1922


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It's hard to say someone was 'play-acting' when they are victim of a YC-level act of foul play to the face.

And White's behaviour would be pointless in a community game - if the ref hadn't seen the incident he's not going to penalise it.
White's purpose was to get a TMO involved.
I don‘t think it is. Does anyone, and do you, really believe White was suffering significantly from the contact, in line with his actions on the field? If no, then he was playacting.
 

SimonSmith


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I don‘t think it is. Does anyone, and do you, really believe White was suffering significantly from the contact, in line with his actions on the field? If no, then he was playacting.
There is a difference between exaggeration and placting - that is, making things up that didn't happen.

The logical extrapolation of your position is that if a player is struck by an opponent, they should just carry on and trust that the officials will catch it. Which they didn't.
 

crossref


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I don‘t think it is. Does anyone, and do you, really believe White was suffering significantly from the contact, in line with his actions on the field? If no, then he was playacting.
Simon explains it.
 

shebeen

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There is. It is not an automatic YC. See image from head contact process issued March 2021. And I see this is lowest possible level of danger for head contact.
A755FA48-DD2B-4207-9514-438B161BDCE5.jpeg

not sure why some are still discussing this as a YC offense. Ref identified both low danger and unintentional action as mitigation.
 

crossref


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not sure why some are still discussing this as a YC offense.
Because a YC was given !

White gambled
If the TMO had decided there was no offence , then White would certainly have been sanctioned for simulating an offence

But the TMO decide there was an offence
 

Locke


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Because a YC was given !

White gambled
If the TMO had decided there was no offence , then White would certainly have been sanctioned for simulating an offence

But the TMO decide there was an offence
I just don’t agree at all that makes it ok. To me, Nic White’s pretend pain/injury is very clearly contrary to good sportsmanship (9.27) and easily a penalty. I don’t see how this can be argued. That kind of behavior cannot be encouraged.
My answer to the objection, “what was White supposed to do then?” is appeal to his captain to speak to the referee and accept the result. Players have to accept the calls and the non-calls the officiating team make, no matter what they are.
 

crossref


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I just don’t agree at all that makes it ok. To me, Nic White’s pretend pain/injury is very clearly contrary to good sportsmanship (9.27) and easily a penalty. I don’t see how this can be argued. That kind of behavior cannot be encouraged.
My answer to the objection, “what was White supposed to do then?” is appeal to his captain to speak to the referee and accept the result. Players have to accept the calls and the non-calls the officiating team make, no matter what they are.
you're putting a big burden on the referee with this approach -- player gets hit in the face, and the referee has to make a judgement about whether he reaction was proportionate or not .. and penalise him if it wasn't ?

(and 9.27 unsportsmanlike behaviour isn't for behaviour you don't like. Look at the examples given in the RFU table - hair pulling, testicle or breast squeezing, fingers up the backside, spitting. It's not there for being too theatrical)

TBC - I didn't say Iiked what NW did. I don't approve it. But it's not a PK reversal situation
 

SimonSmith


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I just don’t agree at all that makes it ok. To me, Nic White’s pretend pain/injury is very clearly contrary to good sportsmanship (9.27) and easily a penalty. I don’t see how this can be argued. That kind of behavior cannot be encouraged.
My answer to the objection, “what was White supposed to do then?” is appeal to his captain to speak to the referee and accept the result. Players have to accept the calls and the non-calls the officiating team make, no matter what they are.
Bless your heart. That's a charmingly naive view of what should happen at the international level.
A penalty offence on the goal line and your advice is...suck it up and hope they catch it next time?

In descending order of fault:
FDK for actually hitting him in the face
PW for missing it.
Then NW for drawing the referee's attention to it.

Maybe - and I'm going out on a limb here - more attention should be paid to FDK fucking it up so badly that instead of slapping at the ball, he managed to miss the ball, the torso, and instead hit someone in the face. If we deal with that properly, NW doesn't feel the need to draw the referee's attention to an act of foul play.
 

Jarrod Burton


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not sure why some are still discussing this as a YC offense. Ref identified both low danger and unintentional action as mitigation.
FDK action to hit the ball was deliberate, NW wasn't changing height and the contact to face was clear and no significant mitigating factors. FDK's action was intentional, even if the intent to hit the head wasn't. YC is fair.
 
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