Sneaky QTI

didds

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Of course. It was daft of me.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh hang on a minute. Does it matter if they land "within 10 meters of the ball landing"?

what if the aliens are wearing leggings?

didds
 

Dickie E


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Once the QT is no longer possible then offside lines end. A player "offside" can't prevent a QTI that was etablished and confirmed on the WR site.

Just to confirm on that. A player that was complying with law just before the ball went into touch can then participate in the QTI. So a team mate of the kicker who is standing still as the ball sails over his head can move forward and participate in the QTI once ball is in touch.
 

Balones

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what if the aliens are wearing leggings?

didds

Not material. The space craft would be illegally parked and that would be the clear and obvious first offence. The wearing of leggings would only be considered under the regulations pertaining to the particular union regulations that the aliens come from. Since they are not participants in this game the referee cannot sanction them even if they did comply to the level and nature fo game being played at the time.
 

DocY


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What about this scenario ?

But wait ...... as they move forward they notice that Black ball retriever is seemingly wanting to take a QTI from a location between the LOT & his own goal line - so they all pause hoping to launch an attack. Reds see the potential so they also position themselves to cover this risk & no team is heading towards the LoT


My emphasis. Then they're delaying forming the lineout and this should be dealt with.

Near the halfway line x2 blacks & x2 reds seem to have lined up to form a Lineout , but this lineout isn't actually positioned on the LoT & Reds are now appealing to the referee to call that the QTI is no longer on. Blacks counter appeal citing they haven't approached the LoT yet.

Blacks: "We haven't approached the LoT yet, ref!"

Ref: "Have you not? [PEEEP] Free kick, delaying forming the lineout".

But in practice, before this had happened I'd expect something like

Ref: "Guys, stop p****** about and form the lineout!"

much earlier on, particularly close to the end of the game.
 

VM75

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So, IYO get there as quick as you can and commence standing/lying/or other QTI prevention act on the ball or thrower to impinge on the thrower until a LO is eventually formed.

Ian C , do you agree?

C'mon Ian don't be shy,

Pegleg has said that standing on the ball to prevent a QTI by your opponents is "fair game" [ presumably that 'prevention right' expires when a LO is formed ]

do you agree ?
If not, how would you sanction & why?
 

DocY


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C'mon Ian don't be shy,

Pegleg has said that standing on the ball to prevent a QTI by your opponents is "fair game" [ presumably that 'prevention right' expires when a LO is formed ]

do you agree ?
If not, how would you sanction & why?

I think the point about standing on the ball was that, if it were done by someone other than the player who took the ball into touch, it would prohibit a QTI - he'd just have to tap it, no standing needed.

It might be a bit of a dick move and I think there's a case for penalising such a player, but it would certainly stop the QTI.
 

VM75

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My emphasis. Then they're delaying forming the lineout and this should be dealt with.
But this is part of my wider point - Who do you deal with? you can't be accussed of delaying 'forming' if the other team aren't forming either - chicken & de-lay!!


Blacks: "We haven't approached the LoT yet, ref!"

Ref: "Have you not? [PEEEP] Free kick, delaying forming the lineout" ,

Remember, neither team have 'formed' on the LoT, Blacks are merely countering the Reds claim that they have. IIUC Forming at a position other than at the LoT seems to have no QTI prevention status [which also forms part of my point]

.
DocY, your replies [whilst appreciated] seem to have been slightly off point, cheers V
 
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VM75

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I think the point about standing on the ball was that, if it were done by someone other than the player who took the ball into touch, it would prohibit a QTI - he'd just have to tap it, no standing needed.

It might be a bit of a dick move and I think there's a case for penalising such a player, but it would certainly stop the QTI.

Why would it? [Law reference please]
 

DocY


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Why would it? [Law reference please]

Law 23 (a):
[LAWS]
If DocY deems a player is being a dick, that player is liable to sanction
[/LAWS]

But more seriously - I'd see a player who wasn't otherwise involved running over to touch the ball and thereby prevent a QTI as being akin to a player stopping a quick tap.
 

DocY


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Why would it? [Law reference please]
Unless I missed the point again:

19.2 (d)
[LAWS]
A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and an opponent who carried it into touch[/LAWS]
 

Pegleg

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Just to confirm on that. A player that was complying with law just before the ball went into touch can then participate in the QTI. So a team mate of the kicker who is standing still as the ball sails over his head can move forward and participate in the QTI once ball is in touch.

I refer you to the WR clips on the subject.
 

Ian_Cook


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C'mon Ian don't be shy,

Your original post was at 2am
Your reminder was at 3am

I do actually sleep... sometimes

Pegleg has said that standing on the ball to prevent a QTI by your opponents is "fair game" [ presumably that 'prevention right' expires when a LO is formed ]

do you agree ?
If not, how would you sanction & why?

If the player standing on the ball is the same player who was forced into touch....
[LAWS]Law 19.2 (i) If a player carrying the ball is forced into touch, that player must release the ball to an opposition player so that there can be a quick throw-in.
Sanction: Penalty kick on 15-metre line[/LAWS]
... standing on the ball is not releasing it. PK on 15m line


If the player standing in the ball is another player....
[LAWS]19.2 (d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in
and an opponent who carried it into touch. The same team throws into the lineout.[/LAWS]
... as soon as another player touches the ball, the QTI is off so standing on it is immaterial. No sanction.

Not the answer you were hoping for I suspect!
 
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crossref


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Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E
Just to confirm on that. A player that was complying with law just before the ball went into touch can then participate in the QTI. So a team mate of the kicker who is standing still as the ball sails over his head can move forward and participate in the QTI once ball is in touch.

I refer you to the WR clips on the subject.

unfortunately the WR clips don't settle that question, as in those clips the offside players continue to move forward after the kick.

the question of a player who remains stationary until the ball is in touch (can he then defend the QTI or is he offside) -- is moot.
 

Pegleg

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The players do indeed and the video points out the transgressing players. Is that not the point of the video? Showing the transgression. In an earlier video it stated a player who is offside before the ball goes into touch should not benefit from being offside.

So

If the ball goes in to touch and a player is offside he must, if a QTI is possible comply with the appropriate law to return to an onside position (general play / !0 mtr rule etc).

However, Once a QTI is NOT possible then they player cant benefit from his offside. Play will stop and offside line appropriate to the line out are set.

So if the ball goes into the crowd and therefore the QI is ruled out players can move towards the LOT. If a QTI is on they can not and indeed may need to retreat depending on the Offside law that is applicable.
 

VM75

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Your original post was at 2am
Your reminder was at 3am
really?, my server must be on the blip,
ooops, apology, sorry.


If the player standing on the ball is the same player who was forced into touch....
[LAWS]Law 19.2 (i) If a player carrying the ball is forced into touch, that player must release the ball to an opposition player so that there can be a quick throw-in.
Sanction: Penalty kick on 15-metre line[/LAWS]
... standing on the ball is not releasing it. PK on 15m line


If the player standing in the ball is another player....
[LAWS]19.2 (d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in
and an opponent who carried it into touch. The same team throws into the lineout.[/LAWS]
... as soon as another player touches the ball, the QTI is off so standing on it is immaterial. No sanction.

Not the answer you were hoping for I suspect!

Actually it was.

So, provided the 'standing on the ball' is done by another RED , ie.. someone who didnt carry the ball into touch, then this is ok is it? Piglet says "fair game" & that's the question I'm posing to you, do you agree?

Pegleg is saying that a valid way to end the BLACK QTI permission [i.e. to prevent a BLACK QTI from happening] is for another RED of the non throwing team to merely find a way to touch the ball?

IF so, Presumably it would be legitimate 'creative QTI antidote' to coach a team [that kicks the ball into touch] to actively pursue the Black thrower or urgently try to grab/touch/contact the ball whilst Black is contemplating his mid-creative preparation in order to close their QTI opportunity.

Furthermore, IIUYC then it follows that if RED carries the ball into touch, then it would be smart of him to 'creatively-delay' a release of the ball to Black only when a RED teammate is nearby, so that this RED teammate can now urgently/immediately touch the ball & in so doing, close off Blacks QTI opportunity.

Which means that it would be a 'smart QTI defence' for any nearby supporting player [when Red gets forced into touch] to immediately rush to stand near/on top of the closest Black player in order to 'immediately touch the ball' as soon as Red hands it to Black to curtail the black QTI opportunity.

?
 

Dickie E


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If a QTI is on they can not and indeed may need to retreat depending on the Offside law that is applicable.

That's not how I understand it. And would make for a nice litle pantomime if the ABs play their "pick up the ball, drop the ball, pick up the ball" tactic.
 

Ian_Cook


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Actually it was.

So, provided the 'standing on the ball' is done by another RED , ie.. someone who didnt carry the ball into touch, then this is ok is it? Piglet says "fair game" & that's the question I'm posing to you, do you agree?

Pegleg is saying that a valid way to end the BLACK QTI permission [i.e. to prevent a BLACK QTI from happening] is for another RED of the non throwing team to merely find a way to touch the ball?

Touching the ball to prevent a QTI is fine. Its not prohibited in law.

Note, I would object to players not in the XV on the field, e.g. on the subs bench or team officials, chasing a ball to touch it. In fact, I have seen players and team officials sanctioned for that.

If so, Presumably it would be legitimate 'creative QTI antidote' to coach a team [that kicks the ball into touch] to actively pursue the Black thrower or urgently try to grab/touch/contact the ball whilst Black is contemplating his mid-creative preparation in order to close their QTI opportunity.

Yep, I'm fine with that. Happens more often that you might realize, its just the cameras don't catch it very often

Furthermore, IIUYC then it follows that if RED carries the ball into touch, then it would be smart of him to 'creatively-delay' a release of the ball to Black only when a RED teammate is nearby, so that this RED teammate can now urgently/immediately touch the ball & in so doing, close off Blacks QTI opportunity.

No. If a player has taken the ball into touch, and an opponent tries to take it off him, he must give it up immediately. If he doesn't, ping. If he throws it away, ping

Which means that it would be a 'smart QTI defence' for any nearby supporting player [when Red gets forced into touch] to immediately rush to stand near/on top of the closest Black player in order to 'immediately touch the ball' as soon as Red hands it to Black to curtail the black QTI opportunity.

I have no problem with that, so long as he does not prevent the player to took the ball into touch from releasing it. Touching the ball when it is already in the hands of the player wanting to throw it does not prevent the QTI being taken.

You left one important scenario off your "angels on pinheads" list. If the ball is touched by an alien from the Planet Zog, the QTI is still on, because, despite the fact that the Law says "quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball", aliens are not people (except Alf of course, because he's a people alien!
 
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ChuckieB

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"No. If a player has taken the ball into touch, and an opponent tries to take it off him, he must give it up immediately. If he doesn't, ping. If he throws it away, ping"

ATP?

Materiality considered?
 
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Ian_Cook


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"ATP?

Materiality considered?

ATP: Nope, no need for ATP. Players know exactly what they are doing

Materiality: Before the law came in about angled QTI and taking it anywhere between where it where it went into touch and the player's own goal-line, I would very likely (but not always) have said yes. Now that a player can take the ball and run back toward his goal-line, almost certainly no, unless the lineout had formed or there was clearly not going to be any chance of a QTI.

On a side note; I would also like to see a law introduced to prevent players from standing in the tramlines right in front of the thrower. IMO an opponent should be allowed to attempt to block the QTI but only if they are standing at least 5m in from touch.
 
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Dickie E


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On a side note; I would also like to see a law introduced to prevent players from standing in the tramlines right in front of the thrower. IMO an opponent should be allowed to attempt to block the QTI but only if they are standing at least 5m in from touch.

your wish is my command:

[LAWS](h) At a quick throw-in, a player must not prevent the ball being thrown in 5 metres.
Sanction: Free Kick on 15-metre line[/LAWS]
 
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