[Tackle] South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

Pablo


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I’m sure many other have seen this video going viral recently:
https://twitter.com/nabasboer/status/1109361691677114368?s=21

What’s the RRF consensus?

For my $0.02, I think it’s a straight red under 9.11 or 9.13 - tackler not in control, tackled player’s head/neck is first point of contact with the ground.
 

Flish


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Tackle timing probably ok in terms of when he committed to the tackle, but reckless, has a duty of care and became dangerous so a red card (based on the luxuries of replays and a second look)
 

Phil E


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I am tempted to say the tackle was perfectly legal (as best i can see on that video).

Wrapped him up.
Below the shoulder.
Didn't lift him beyond the horizontal.

Just unfortunate that the drive flipped him over.
The key for me is that there was no lifting of the legs.
 

Rich_NL

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Not a lift tackle, but tackler is responsible for getting the tackled player safely to the ground; the tackler leaps in and has no contact with the ground. At the very least reckless - this is U14 rugby, too.

Brings to mind this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiIUeVsdeiw
which was right on the edge for professional adult rugby, and Lawes kept his feet on the ground.
 

Taff


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For what it's worth, this is what I think.

  • It's a legal tackle - not above shoulder height, doesn't lift the layer etc
  • Just a quick look at the video and he looks a lot bigger than the White BC. Could this have been addressed in the PMB?
  • It's definitely a "Safety stoppage" for me.
  • I would definitely be having a word about "excessive force"
 
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didds

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I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place here.

I get particularly because its schoolboy rugby that it is all aboutr safety. i get bthe bit about excessive force...

but if the player asks you "Ok ref, that's fine. How much force is not excessive?" - what are you going to answer?


maybe "I'll know when you might have put the oppo in hospital" ?

I once put an oppo in hospital. Safe tackle, full wrap, about midriff, nowhere near the chest even, side tackle. Was that "excessive force" ?


didds
 
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Taff


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..... I get the bit about excessive force... but if the player asks you "Ok ref, that's fine. How much force is not excessive?" - what are you going to answer?
My answer would be "I'll recognise it when I see it OK!. And that looked excessive to me gents."

Hopefully, the White player had a breather, dusted himself down and got on with the game. I don't like the phrase, but we'd have to "manage it" somehow.
 
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didds

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Absolutely Taff. I am just uncofortable with refs addign "requiremenbts" that are in themseloevs not measurable and are subjective, possibly even woutcome based.

IF that same player performs a text book kknee high, full wrap, squueze the banana side tackle and the tackjled player just happens to break a leg - is that tackler now looking at sanction for something that 99.9999999999999% of the time is just " a tackle" ?

tha5t's the issue.

But I do understand - its not simple.

didds
 

Marc Wakeham


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Certainly, as others have put it, is not a "Tip" of any type. However the critical bits of Law are:

9.11

and

9.13 (not limited to...")


The only questions can be:

Was it "reckless"? or was it "dangerous"?

The answers to the questions depends on context.

For me, it was fine but unfortunte (in outcome - but, with few exceptions{ e.g. high tackles} we don't make calls based on outcome.
 
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crossref


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Is anyone really maintaining that they can penalise a hand off with excessive force, because there is a Law on it, but we have no way of penalising that?

Anyway a generalized "excessive force" Law is surely on its way
 
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Rich_NL

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IF that same player performs a text book kknee high, full wrap, squueze the banana side tackle and the tackjled player just happens to break a leg - is that tackler now looking at sanction for something that 99.9999999999999% of the time is just " a tackle" ?

No. But the tackle in the clip will not be just a tackle 99.9999% of the time.

Intentional knock-on is a judgement call, which you back up by positioning and game situation. So is cynical play. Late tackle is a judgement call too. Reckless tackle is another judgement call, backed up by the position and movement of the tackler and BC.

"Players must not do anything reckless or dangerous to others": reckless is when you (should) know there's a reasonable chance of something being dangerous to a fellow player. I think flying off your feet at full speed into someone much smaller than you is reckless at age grade.

Teenagers are poor at risk estimation (through no fault of their own, but their brains aren't fully developed), and if you don't give a sanction to that level of risk then you calibrate things badly. At U14 some kids have half-beards and muscles and some are still skinny schoolkids who haven't had their hormone rush yet, so the big guy just wants to show off his new size and make a big hit like he sees on the telly, but on a child whose body is not prepared for that. I had a case like that last year, and had to talk to the player and coach to explain my concerns because the kids being tackled have to a) go to school the next day and b) stay interested in rugby long enough that their own bodies develop. As a ref, it's my job to set acceptable levels.
 

Pablo


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I am tempted to say the tackle was perfectly legal (as best i can see on that video).

Wrapped him up.
Below the shoulder.
Didn't lift him beyond the horizontal.

Just unfortunate that the drive flipped him over.
The key for me is that there was no lifting of the legs.

Appreciate the opposing view. Where I take issue with this is that I don't think the absence of a lift exonerates him - the tackler is pretty clearly the cause of the ball carrier being flipped. And the fact that he left his feet to do so meant there was no possibility of controlling the landing. Given the outcome of head-to-floor contact, I don't think you can wipe this off as "unfortunate" - it's reckless, and therefore liable to sanction.
 

Pablo


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Anyway a generalized "excessive force" Law is surely on its way

For all practical purposes, one exists - it is neatly covered by 9.11 "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others." I would contend that any force that you consider excessive, you also view as at least one of reckless or dangerous.
 

Pablo


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My answer would be "I'll recognise it when I see it OK!. And that looked excessive to me gents."

Hopefully, the White player had a breather, dusted himself down and got on with the game. I don't like the phrase, but we'd have to "manage it" somehow.

I would tend to agree with "I know if when I see it" - and for me, I saw it in that video!

I don't know for certain the truth of the outcome, but various comments surrounding the video suggest that the white-shirted ball carrier was knocked unconscious in this incident.
 

crossref


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For all practical purposes, one exists - it is neatly covered by 9.11 "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others." I would contend that any force that you consider excessive, you also view as at least one of reckless or dangerous.

Reckless and dangerous have been around for ages
Excessive Force is different, and new
 

ChuckieB

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No. But the tackle in the clip will not be just a tackle 99.9999% of the time.

Intentional knock-on is a judgement call, which you back up by positioning and game situation. So is cynical play. Late tackle is a judgement call too. Reckless tackle is another judgement call, backed up by the position and movement of the tackler and BC.

"Players must not do anything reckless or dangerous to others": reckless is when you (should) know there's a reasonable chance of something being dangerous to a fellow player. I think flying off your feet at full speed into someone much smaller than you is reckless at age grade.

Teenagers are poor at risk estimation (through no fault of their own, but their brains aren't fully developed), and if you don't give a sanction to that level of risk then you calibrate things badly. At U14 some kids have half-beards and muscles and some are still skinny schoolkids who haven't had their hormone rush yet, so the big guy just wants to show off his new size and make a big hit like he sees on the telly, but on a child whose body is not prepared for that. I had a case like that last year, and had to talk to the player and coach to explain my concerns because the kids being tackled have to a) go to school the next day and b) stay interested in rugby long enough that their own bodies develop. As a ref, it's my job to set acceptable levels.

While the initial view might be that he flew in off his feet, closer inspection actually shows he pretty much had his left foot planted at the point of contact and it was subsequent mechanics and momentum that took him into the air.

If he were to have flown off his feet like a missile, then one might argue that if you are not to tackle a player while he is in the air then you laws should be balanced and that the tackler should not be be allowed to tackle in the air.

As much as a self preservation instinct would want me to wish otherwise, for me this was not an obvious illegal tackle. We can chalk it down to perhaps one of those things to be reckoned as a perfect storm with such an unfortunate outcome.

This is yet a further piece of evidence that could be used to support the case for the evolution and revision of the tackle laws and the need to address size, weight and skills imbalances in youth and mini rugby. Also as a parent of a seventeen year old who weighs in at 9st and just 5 ft 6, I have my heart in my mouth when see him play. He is able to punch well above his weight because he is actually a half decent player, plays in a position that is suited to his size and ability and one that I am comfortable with. Unfortuanately I do not have the same element of oversight or knowledge of the opposition.
 

crossref


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If that is allowed in the youth game , we will no longer have a youth game...
 

Rich_NL

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This is yet a further piece of evidence that could be used to support the case for the evolution and revision of the tackle laws and the need to address size, weight and skills imbalances in youth and mini rugby.

If you're refereeing, you can address it.

6.5.a [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. The referee must apply the laws of the game fairly in every match.[/FONT]

9.11 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.[/FONT]
 

ChuckieB

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If you're refereeing, you can address it.

6.5.a [FONT=fs_blakeregular]The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. The referee must apply the laws of the game fairly in every match.[/FONT]

9.11 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.[/FONT]

Locking the stable door.....

My point is about reducing the incidences rather than applying a sanction after the event. That should be our concern here.
 
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