Springboks v Lions

[crossref]

The ref called 'use it' as he determined the ball was won and available at the back of a stationary scrum, and might have done so just before or just as the 9 was moving away. Once he'd called it, I think he had to penalise the push, which didn't start until after the call. It was definitely tight - and the call probably happened after the 9 had decided he was going to back away.

Sanction for not using it is a scrum

 

[belladonna]

The try by Am... Nigel Owens was saying he wouldn't have given it because Am didn't have control. I thought it was just downwards pressure? I tried checking to 2021 law book but it just talks about "grounding the ball" and there's no definition of what this mean. Puzzled!?

 

[didds]

AIUI...

downward pressure is when the ball - not held - is on the ground in goal - the scorer must apply downward pressure to the ball.

For a held/carried ball it only has to touch the ground - no pressure required. The ball carrier however must basically be on control of the ball.



Another day, another ref and that SA try may have been an on field no try decsion, and henshaw's an on field try decsion.

thems the rubs.

 

[belladonna]

AIUI...

downward pressure is when the ball - not held - is on the ground in goal - the scorer must apply downward pressure to the ball.

For a held/carried ball it only has to touch the ground - no pressure required. The ball carrier however must basically be on control of the ball.



Another day, another ref and that SA try may have been an on field no try decsion, and henshaw's an on field try decsion.

thems the rubs.

Ah OK, thanks didds ?

Does anyone have any law references or definitions - maybe from older law books?

 

[crossref]

Ah OK, thanks didds ��

Does anyone have any law references or definitions - maybe from older law books?

I think didds is quite right .... but I don't think any of that is really in the law book

 

[didds]

I just had a very quick peek online.

All "scoring a try" mentions is grounding the ball.

Definitions doesnt include (certainly not under "G" section anyway!) grounding.

I searched the whole WR site for "grounding " - nothing obvious exccept the graphic that accompanies scoring a try of a player laying on the ball in goal. I also tried a search for "pressure" - no hits at all.

Other's searching skills may be better than mine!

 

[Rich_NL]

Am wasn't carrying the ball, he was chasing it down in the loose, so continuous pressure down to the ground would seem the right criterion and the try should stand.

I thought Kolisi's rip was extremely skilful, but couldn't tell at all whether it was grounded or not - would a 5m attacking scrum for unsure grounding have been a fair call, or is that not possible with the TMO protocols? IIRC they got a dropout.

That Kolbe escaped a red is every bit as baffling as H Watson escaping a yellow last week.

 

[crossref]

Am wasn't carrying the ball, he was chasing it down in the loose, so continuous pressure down to the ground would seem the right criterion and the try should stand.

.

I think that would count as 'control' so if he DID have continuous pressure all the way to the ground then it would be a try .

BUT acting as TMO I wasn't sure that he did have continuous pressure all the way down.

So for me

- on Saturday afternoon with no TMO and no replay, try

- if I was TMO, I would have gone with whatever the on-field decision was stated to be, as no clear evidence to over-rule either way.

 

[KoolFork]

I just had a very quick peek online.

All "scoring a try" mentions is grounding the ball.

Definitions doesnt include (certainly not under "G" section anyway!) grounding.

I searched the whole WR site for "grounding " - nothing obvious exccept the graphic that accompanies scoring a try of a player laying on the ball in goal. I also tried a search for "pressure" - no hits at all.

Other's searching skills may be better than mine!

• Law 21.1 The ball can be grounded in in-goal:
  • a. By holding it and touching the ground with it; or
  • b. By pressing down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck.
• 21.1.b applies. What does "pressing down on it (the ball)"? My understanding was that as long as the hand* was touching the ball and the ball was touching the ground at the same time, that was grounding. But reading the law afresh, this isn't necessarily "pressing down".
• *Would the try have been awarded had the simultaneous touch down happened with the arm or front of the body to one side of the ball?
• Nigel Owens seemed to get very exercised because the ball rolled up from Am's hands onto his wrists. As far as I could tell, the ball was in contact (with Am's hands or wrists) throughout (so no knock-on) and since you can score with your arm, why is that an issue?

 

[crossref]

holding it, is probably a tougher test than having control.

 

[didds]

That Kolbe escaped a red is every bit as baffling as H Watson escaping a yellow last week.

Im not sure how though?

after being played in the air

* first point of contact with the ground was Murray's foot
* second point of contact with the ground was his outstretched hand
* third point of contact seemed to be his back, just behind the shoulder.

I admit i didnt really look at that 3rd instance as the foot and hand were clearly before hand - so my understanding [1] is that Murray didnt make contact with the ground with his head or shoulder but his foot then hand. subsequent contacts being immaterial after the foot anyway.

[1] This may have changed in the last couple fo years or so and I am happy be better educated :-0

So based on the above YC seemed spot on.


That all said Ive long thought that this approach is rubbish, as the eventual punishment meted out is down to the reactions of the played player, ultimately, and in a worst case scenario actually promotes the idea of a player played in the air to tuck their arms in and to deliberately seek contact with the ground with their head in order to maximise their team's advantage from the incident!

 

[KoolFork]

holding it, is probably a tougher test than having control.

That's 21.1.a ie where a player touches down while holding the ball. 21.1.b is what's relevant here? Or I'm missing the point?

 

[crossref]

That's 21.1.a ie where a player touches down while holding the ball. 21.1.b is what's relevant here? Or I'm missing the point?

well I am not 100% sure, but I understand 21.1.b is for a ball that is ON the ground, while 21.1.a is for when a player has the ball and touches the ground with it ..

so it was a 21,1.a situation..

Having said that, I don't think the Law is completely aligned with how the elite refs ref it

 

[belladonna]

• Law 21.1 The ball can be grounded in in-goal:
  • a. By holding it and touching the ground with it; or
  • b. By pressing down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck.

Thanks for the law refs - much appreciated ?

 

[belladonna]

well I am not 100% sure, but I understand 21.1.b is for a ball that is ON the ground, while 21.1.a is for when a player has the ball and touches the ground with it ..

so it was a 21,1.a situation..

Having said that, I don't think the Law is completely aligned with how the elite refs ref it

Well, that would make sense. Clearly Am has lost control of the ball just before grounding it - otherwise it would have been grounded by his hand while he was holding it, not grounded by his wrist while he was not. So I can see both why it was awarded, and also why Nigel Owens says he was lucky for it to be awarded.

 

[belladonna]

Well, that would make sense. Clearly Am has lost control of the ball just before grounding it - otherwise it would have been grounded by his hand while he was holding it, not grounded by his wrist while he was not. So I can see both why it was awarded, and also why Nigel Owens says he was lucky for it to be awarded.

Oh oops, I take it all back! I just watched a video of the try and he was never in possession, he was chasing a bouncing ball which had been kicked through. The ball is in the air when he makes his first contact - with the palm of his hand, and then he brings the ball to ground. The ref says to the other officials that there was no clear evidence of separation, so he's awarding the try. https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/12369314/am-adds-south-africas-second-try

 

[crossref]

I think the TMO would have supported the on field decision (whatever it was)

 

[Dickie E]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/world-rugby-statement-rassie-erasmus-and-sa-rugby/

 

[shebeen]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/world-rugby-statement-rassie-erasmus-and-sa-rugby/

But Gatland gets a free pass for criticising the appointment of the TMO because he did it publicly through the media?

“Match officials are the backbone of the sport, and without them there is no game. World Rugby condemns any public criticism of their selection, performance or integrity which undermines their role....

Either way this process is underway now, hopefully the outcome is better systems in the long run.

 

[TigerCraig]

Im not sure how though?

after being played in the air

* first point of contact with the ground was Murray's foot
* second point of contact with the ground was his outstretched hand
* third point of contact seemed to be his back, just behind the shoulder.

I admit i didnt really look at that 3rd instance as the foot and hand were clearly before hand - so my understanding [1] is that Murray didnt make contact with the ground with his head or shoulder but his foot then hand. subsequent contacts being immaterial after the foot anyway.

[1] This may have changed in the last couple fo years or so and I am happy be better educated :-0

So based on the above YC seemed spot on.


That all said Ive long thought that this approach is rubbish, as the eventual punishment meted out is down to the reactions of the played player, ultimately, and in a worst case scenario actually promotes the idea of a player played in the air to tuck their arms in and to deliberately seek contact with the ground with their head in order to maximise their team's advantage from the incident!

Struggling to know what the Boks alternative was. He had eyes on the ball and was in position where it was due to land. The Lion launches himself recklessly