Stage of the match should be immaterial

timmad

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6 Nations. Scotland v England. Score 20 -17, i.e. a successful penalty goal by England would tie the match. Series of scrums close to Scotland's 22, starting at approx, 79 mins but extending beyond 80 mins. England 'won' several consecutive scrums. Pushing Scotland back and /or causing them to wheel.
At any other stage of the match would O'Keefe have awarded England a penalty?
Should he have done?
Do you allow the match situation to colour your decisions?
#rosecolouredglasses
 

SimonSmith


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He said to both teams he wasn't going to penalize unless it was really clear. He also told both teams that they were both at fault.

Perhaps removing your rose tinted glasses might help.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Wheeling is not illegal! See law 19.34 C, otherwise the sanction would not be a reset would it!
 

BikingBud


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Wheeling is not illegal! See law 19.34 C, otherwise the sanction would not be a reset would it!
19.34 - when there is no infringement.........

However, 19.19 - Players may push provided they do so straight and parallel to the ground. Sanction: Penalty.

But we know he wasn't going to make that decision that late in the game:censored:
 

Stu10

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On the second attempted scrum the Scotland tight head clearly lost his feet first... He was on his knees before Marler hinged over following him down.
 

timmad

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Wheeling is not illegal! See law 19.34 C, otherwise the sanction would not be a reset would it!
I was trying to suggest it was a symptom of England's dominance.

6 Nations Sunday. France v Italy. Approx 12 mins, one of first scrums, French shove , Italians wheel. Adamson gives penalty to France.

#tricolortintedglasses
 

Marc Wakeham


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19.34 - when there is no infringement.........

However, 19.19 - Players may push provided they do so straight and parallel to the ground. Sanction: Penalty.

But we know he wasn't going to make that decision that late in the game:censored:
One prop pushes the other holds. Also there is a natural wheel built. in to scrum . My point stands and thank yo ufor confiming it A wheel is not illegal when there is no infringement QED. How you achieve it may be. But they are not the same thing!
 

Marc Wakeham


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I was trying to suggest it was a symptom of England's dominance.

6 Nations Sunday. France v Italy. Approx 12 mins, one of first scrums, French shove , Italians wheel. Adamson gives penalty to France.

#tricolortintedglasses
Were they legal wheels or illegal ones? Just becaust England dominated does not mean that , by definition the wheel was illegal. It may have been. But one really needs to not make assumptions when judging the scrum.
 

SimonSmith


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You mean like the England TH seems incapable of setting down without his are pointing at the corner flag?
Or Marler hinging whenever he gets the slightest pressure.

I thought BOK was even handed, and consistent, in how he handled the scrums.
Were they legal wheels or illegal ones? Just becaust England dominated does not mean that , by definition the wheel was illegal. It may have been. But one really needs to not make assumptions when judging the scrum.
 

Zebra1922


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I understand the point being made - but you have to be sympathetic to the referee and game situation here. Yes all decisions should be equal and equally important, but we know at the end of the match with the scores close a decision/non decision will impact the outcome of the game. Here you are not going to guess the right call, or penalise a team because it looks wrong but you didn’t see what happened. You have to be sure so will err on the side of scrum resets.

I know there’s an argument you should do this throughout the game, but we’re all human, we all react to the world around us. What O’Keefe did here is not unreasonable and not poor refereeing.
 

Arabcheif

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I had a ladies match before Christmas, home team were very dominant in the scrum. Kept driving their opposition back and forcing the wheel. Captain asked me when they'd get the PK for wheeling, I replied when they (the oppo) wheel the scrum deliberately. I got but other refs reward us for having a dominant scrum. I replied, I'm not other refs, you're reward for being dominant is winning the ball almost everytime there's a scrum. You want the ball, drive them backwards in a controlled and straight manner. If they then intentional wheel, you'll get the PK.
 

Phil E


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I had a ladies match before Christmas, home team were very dominant in the scrum. Kept driving their opposition back and forcing the wheel. Captain asked me when they'd get the PK for wheeling, I replied when they (the oppo) wheel the scrum deliberately. I got but other refs reward us for having a dominant scrum. I replied, I'm not other refs, you're reward for being dominant is winning the ball almost everytime there's a scrum. You want the ball, drive them backwards in a controlled and straight manner. If they then intentional wheel, you'll get the PK.

Was this game played with U19 scrum laws (as is common in ladies regulations)?
 

Arabcheif

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Now you're asking, this was 2/3 months ago. I'm sure I'll have applied U-19 scrum Laws. There are certain leagues in SRU land for Women's rugby that have full scrum Laws, but that's Tier 1 BUCS and Nat Perm level.
 

Phil E


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Now you're asking, this was 2/3 months ago. I'm sure I'll have applied U-19 scrum Laws. There are certain leagues in SRU land for Women's rugby that have full scrum Laws, but that's Tier 1 BUCS and Nat Perm level.

So if they can only go 1.5m or 45 degrees the likelihood of a scrum penalty is very low, because as soon as the wheel starts you are going to shout STOP!
 

Marc Wakeham


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I had a ladies match before Christmas, home team were very dominant in the scrum. Kept driving their opposition back and forcing the wheel. Captain asked me when they'd get the PK for wheeling, I replied when they (the oppo) wheel the scrum deliberately. I got but other refs reward us for having a dominant scrum. I replied, I'm not other refs, you're reward for being dominant is winning the ball almost everytime there's a scrum. You want the ball, drive them backwards in a controlled and straight manner. If they then intentional wheel, you'll get the PK.
When will this myth stop?

It is not illegal. to wheel a scrum. It is perfectly simple to legally wheel a scrum. If we don't know the laws what chance is there?

It is illegal do do so dangerously. Only at age group are there no wheels allowed.
 

Arabcheif

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Um yes it is, past 90/45 degrees. 19.34-c The scrum is wheeled through more than 90 degrees (45 for U-19 variations), so the middle line has passed beyond a position parallel to the touchline. This is a reset, but it's widely accepted that if this keeps happening a PK is awarded for a repeat infringement.
 

Arabcheif

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Because you can't just keep resetting scrums over and over again. If it keeps happening, someone is causing it to happen. So you've gotta decide if its the team driving forward or the team being pushed back. My experience in the scrums, tell me that it usually one prop isn't getting pushed back at the same rate as the other prop in his team. It then becomes (for me), a matter of control for the dominant scrum to make sure they drive both props back at the same rate. Since they are in control of the scrum, they have the responsibility for me. It's not usually given like that though, it's usually seen as the defending team are at fault for not being able to hold the other team back.
 

didds

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what if both teams have dominant loose heads and weaker tight heads such that the scrums just wheel effectively around the hookers?
 
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