Stage of the match should be immaterial

Marc Wakeham


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Because you can't just keep resetting scrums over and over again. If it keeps happening, someone is causing it to happen. So you've gotta decide if its the team driving forward or the team being pushed back. My experience in the scrums, tell me that it usually one prop isn't getting pushed back at the same rate as the other prop in his team. It then becomes (for me), a matter of control for the dominant scrum to make sure they drive both props back at the same rate. Since they are in control of the scrum, they have the responsibility for me. It's not usually given like that though, it's usually seen as the defending team are at fault for not being able to hold the other team back.
No wonder we get a bad press when we make up the laws to suit.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Um yes it is, past 90/45 degrees. 19.34-c The scrum is wheeled through more than 90 degrees (45 for U-19 variations), so the middle line has passed beyond a position parallel to the touchline. This is a reset, but it's widely accepted that if this keeps happening a PK is awarded for a repeat infringement.
Lot's of things are widly accepted. It does not make them true. Still no it is not. If it is wheeled legal past 90 then we reser. Why are you failing to grasp this? The law can see it. Thousands of players and coaches and other can see it. Even a large number of referees can see it.
 
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chbg


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what if both teams have dominant loose heads and weaker tight heads such that the scrums just wheel effectively around the hookers?
They will be scrummaging all match in one spot!
 

SimonSmith


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Um yes it is, past 90/45 degrees. 19.34-c The scrum is wheeled through more than 90 degrees (45 for U-19 variations), so the middle line has passed beyond a position parallel to the touchline. This is a reset, but it's widely accepted that if this keeps happening a PK is awarded for a repeat infringement.

Not in my world. I'm only penalizing someone if they have committed an offence. Being pushed back by a stronger opponent while your mate on the other side isn't - not yet an offence.
 

Phil E


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Not in my world. I'm only penalizing someone if they have committed an offence. Being pushed back by a stronger opponent while your mate on the other side isn't - not yet an offence.

But that can often comes with something that is illegal.
LH boring in.
TH stepping back.
Flankers pulling sideways.
etc.
etc.

Should also note that scrums only tend to wheel for the none putting in team (their LH going forward and in).
That's not a coincidence.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Yes they are example of illegal trying to turn a scrum. But it is easy to do it legally (usually slowly and with more control).
 
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Phil E


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Yes they are example of illegal ly trying to turn a scrum . But it is easy to do it legally (usually slowly and with more control).

This is usually done by the putting in side to crab round slightly and guard one side for the 8/9 pickup. It's controlled and slow (as you say) and stops around 30-40 degrees.

Totally different from a big wheel straight from the put in, that pivots on one side and keep going looking to disrupt or hope for a penalty.

It's not just a question of is wheeling legal or not, there are so many other factors you have to take into consideration.
Field position
Dominant scrum so far
Whose put in is it
Why are they wheeling and how far.
and so on.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Yes but that is not the point. there are posters here claiming, pretty much, any wheel is illegal. This is simply not true. Referees who go into games with blinkers "it wheeled so it must be illegal" are doing the game no favours.

For me the biggest point of your list is "WHY are they wheeling?" along with "Why would they want to wheel that?" That along with visual evident is a big starting point.
 

didds

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indeed.

and the issue with that is... ?

Nobody has broken a law. it is what it is then.

making up PKs cos one is bored is not the answer.
 
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BikingBud


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indeed.

and the issue with that is... ?

Nobody has broken a law. it is what it is then.

making up PKs cos one is bored is not the answer.
Neither is ignoring the laws that are currently there!
 

Marc Wakeham


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Neither is ignoring the laws that are currently there!
If the referee felt the scrums were legally wheeled, or that he felt that it was not c&O who caused the wheel, what laws are you claiming he ignored?
 
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BikingBud


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If the referee felt the scrums were legally wheeled, or that he felt that it was not c&O who caused the wheel, what laws are you claiming he ignored?

My personal opinion is he didn't want to see the scrum offences but that doesn't really count for anything however, the same ref in the same match did not apply the law regarding dummying from the base of a ruck, see other thread.
 

SimonSmith


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My personal opinion is he didn't want to see the scrum offences but that doesn't really count for anything however, the same ref in the same match did not apply the law regarding dummying from the base of a ruck, see other thread.
Oh look. It's the unedifying spectacle of England getting beaten. You're as bad as Rassie.
 

Marc Wakeham


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My personal opinion is he didn't want to see the scrum offences but that doesn't really count for anything however, the same ref in the same match did not apply the law regarding dummying from the base of a ruck, see other thread.
Mindreading to go with your Rose tinted glasses.

Not bad!
 

BikingBud


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Oh look. It's the unedifying spectacle of England getting beaten. You're as bad as Rassie.
Absolutely content that Scotland won as they managed the game better, stretched the defence to get; one good try and force a schoolboy error for a penalty try, competed effectively to get supremacy and took their chances well.

Disappointed that England underperformed, absolutely but also been watching 5 and 6 Nations long enough to know that these things occur in sport, far too regularly given England's player pool and resources but is another discussion.

Disappointed that England management decided to take off the playmaker who had scored all their points, absolutely, but again that is another discussion.

Would it have had a material affect, who knows, I do know that England made enough errors of judgment and skill/execution so as not to be in the ascendency despite having a significant amount of possession and territory and were, therefore, not worthy of a positive result.

But what I cannot get my head around is the inability, or possibly the desire of people on a referees forum, not to assess the facts or answer the straightforward question.

Did the referee call it as a dummy? - Simple yes or no, not your or mine or my great aunt bessie's opinion, did he or didn't he?

If no then I am imagining things as the video record clearly shows it and St Nigel also comments upon it!

So no bad loser, no perceived English arrogance just a desire for someone else to recognise or consider the significant failure of an international referee to not only know the laws but also to apply them.

Is that too much to ask?
 

Marc Wakeham


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People have answered your questions. The problem is you can't accept others have a differing opinion to your alglo-centric one.
 

BikingBud


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People have answered your questions. The problem is you can't accept others have a differing opinion to your alglo-centric one.
Where is the answer about the ref's failure to act in accordance with the law?

? still in the room
 
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