Stop for head injury

S

Shelflife


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
627
Post Likes
156
80 mins are up, we are in the last play. Red 8 blue 10, red are attacking. Blue player goes down with a suspected head injury that you think could be nasty. You stop play so that he can receive attention.

Do do you restart the game ?
 
Phil E

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,091
Post Likes
2,354
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
The law says no...........
 
andyscott

andyscott


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,117
Post Likes
55
up to you.

Do you need to stop the game, would stopping the game help his head injury, is he in the way? is the physio on etc
 
C

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,810
Post Likes
3,148
Phil E said:
The law says no...........
Click to expand...

[LAWS]5.7 Other time regulations
(a)
In international matches, play always lasts eighty minutes plus lost time.
(b)
In non-international matches a Union may decide the length of a match.
(c)
If the Union does not decide, the teams agree on the length of a match. If they cannot agree, the referee decides.
(d)
The referee has the power to end the match at any time, if the referee believes that play should not continue because it would be dangerous.
(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.
(f)
If time expires after a try has been scored the referee allows time for the conversion kick to be taken.
(g)
When weather conditions are exceptionally hot and/or humid, the referee, at his discretion, will be permitted to allow one water break in each half. This water break should be no longer than one minute. Time lost should be added on at the end of each half. The water break should normally be taken after a score or when the ball is out of play near the half way line[/LAWS]

I guess you are saying the game ends under (e) because the next step is a scrum.

but could you argue that the Law refers to 'awarding' a scrum, which implies there has been an infingement, resulting from which the referee awards a scrum.

in this scenario a there was no infringment, the scrum is just a way to restart.

A similar scenario would be if time expired and the referee slips on his face and gets mud in his eye. the ref would have to blow the whistle - would that end the game ? it would be a bit unfair on the players.
 
J

Jacko


Argentina Referees in Argentina
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,514
Post Likes
79
Current Referee grade:
National Panel
Phil E said:
The law says no...........
Click to expand...

Equity above law.
We had this discussion after the incident at Bath where the game was incorrectly stopped for a penalty which turned out on review to be a poor call and was therefore "un-awarded". It was agreed that the game should not have ended and a scrum should have been awarded. I would extend that logic to game being stopped for player safety etc.
 
S

Shelflife


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
627
Post Likes
156
andyscott said:
up to you.

Do you need to stop the game, would stopping the game help his head injury, is he in the way? is the physio on etc
Click to expand...

You have stopped the game, you have made that decision. The question is do you now restart it.
 
C

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,810
Post Likes
3,148
personally
- if I had stopped the game to ensure player safety I would restart it.

but it is a slippery slope this equity over Law thing. What about

- ref falls over and gets mud in his eyes
- ref gets in the way and it is clearly ref's fault.
- ref/player collide, just one of those things, no one's fault
- blue coach comes on field and interferes with play
- a spectator comes on the field and interferes with play
- large dog runs on field and chases ball

do you restart with any of them ?
Eventually you have to say - it's just luck of the draw, it happened, game over.
 
J

Jacko


Argentina Referees in Argentina
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,514
Post Likes
79
Current Referee grade:
National Panel
crossref said:
personally
- if I had stopped the game to ensure player safety I would restart it.

but it is a slippery slope this equity over Law thing. What about

- ref falls over and gets mud in his eyes
- ref gets in the way and it is clearly ref's fault.
- ref/player collide, just one of those things, no one's fault
- blue coach comes on field and interferes with play
- a spectator comes on the field and interferes with play
- large dog runs on field and chases ball

do you restart with any of them ?
Eventually you have to say - it's just luck of the draw, it happened, game over.
Click to expand...

I'd restart with a scrum for most (if not all) of those.
 
Phil E

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,091
Post Likes
2,354
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
What sort of dog?
 
S

Stuartg


Referees in England
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
401
Post Likes
37
crossref said:
personally
- if I had stopped the game to ensure player safety I would restart it.

but it is a slippery slope this equity over Law thing. What about

- ref falls over and gets mud in his eyes
- ref gets in the way and it is clearly ref's fault.
- ref/player collide, just one of those things, no one's fault
- blue coach comes on field and interferes with play
- a spectator comes on the field and interferes with play
- large dog runs on field and chases ball

do you restart with any of them ?
Eventually you have to say - it's just luck of the draw, it happened, game over.
Click to expand...

Game finished. In the big picture it is only a game and it matters not. On the other hand a head injury might matter a very great deal.
 
C

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,810
Post Likes
3,148
I love the way we get opposite opinions on so many of these threads.
I guess all we can do is read who says what, and why, and make up our own mind.

It certainly helps, though, to have thought through a scenario, and variations on it, BEFORE encountering it for the first time on the pitch. I certainly think that if something unusal happened to me after time was up, I'd be more prepared to make a confident decision.
 
F

FlipFlop


Referees in Switzerland
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
3,227
Post Likes
226
This is why you never say exactly how long is left. It gives you the option of doing the "right" thing.

If no-one knows time is up then:
Serious head injury - waiting for ambulance etc - you can easily say that time is up, so game over, and say sorry to team disadvantage, but point out that safety is the prime concern.

Not a serious injury (i.e. player jumps straight back up and is obviously okay) - you can go with the scrum. And no-one will complain.

Where and when you draw the line, that is up to you. But by not committing to the time issue, you get to make the equitable decision, and it is unlikely players will complain.
 
J

Jacko


Argentina Referees in Argentina
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,514
Post Likes
79
Current Referee grade:
National Panel
FlipFlop said:
This is why you never say exactly how long is left. It gives you the option of doing the "right" thing.

If no-one knows time is up then:
Serious head injury - waiting for ambulance etc - you can easily say that time is up, so game over, and say sorry to team disadvantage, but point out that safety is the prime concern.

Not a serious injury (i.e. player jumps straight back up and is obviously okay) - you can go with the scrum. And no-one will complain.

Where and when you draw the line, that is up to you. But by not committing to the time issue, you get to make the equitable decision, and it is unlikely players will complain.
Click to expand...

I see where you're coming from, but I think a team has the right to know if it is, for example, the last play at a PK so they do not kick to touch. If they tap and go, and there is a safety stoppage everyone knows that time has expired.
 
C

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,810
Post Likes
3,148
I think if the referee is the sole judge of time then, barring a scoreboard synchronised to the referee's watch, it has to be reasonable for a team to ask how much longer Reasonable is the key though, it's not reasonable to expect a running countdown.

then if at the last scrum you told them 'about a minute', and since then a good three minutes have passed, it will be obvious to everyone that time has expired, you can't pretend it hasn't.


Aside : last week I had a scrum half ask me in live play, it was at a ruck
Me : "Ball available, Use It"
#9 : "has time expired yet, sir?"
Me : "I'm not checking my watch now!"
 
Phil E

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,091
Post Likes
2,354
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
crossref said:
........... it has to be reasonable for a team to ask how much longer......

Me : "I'm not checking my watch now!"
Click to expand...

:chin: doesn't it buzz or vibrate?
In the time it took you to say that, you could have looked at your watch.
 
C

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,810
Post Likes
3,148
actually it does vibrate (it hadn't) and I reported it wrong the dialogure went
- Use It
- has time expired?
- no
- how much longer?
- I'm not looking at my watch now!

It was a murky afternoon, the light had all but drained away, when it's like that it takes me more than a glance at my watch, I have to peer :sad:
Anyway, I'm not taking my eyes off the play at such a critical moment...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top