Tackle in goal scenarios

crossref


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It's been a while since I did one of these ... so here we go

Attacking winger carries the ball into opponents in goal, and curves round to score under the posts, but is tackled in goal.

In making the tackle the tackler makes contact with the ball (not a rip or knock), the ball spills loose and, a second later, the first arriving player touches down.



(to be clear on direction: at the moment of the tackle the arriving player was in the FoP, so came from that direction).



Four permutations to consider please..



1A – Ball goes toward DBL, and an arriving attacking player touches down

1D – Ball goes toward DBL, and an arriving defender touches down



2A – Ball goes toward goal line, and an arriving attacking player touches down

2D – Ball goes toward goal line, and an arriving defender touches down
 

smeagol


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1A/D - If the ball spills forward towards DBL, it's a knock-on by the attacker (11.5b does not apply, per your condition). In either case, GLDO

2A - Play on, try
2D - 22DO
 

crossref


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Let's look at 2A/2D ..
Law 11.2 says
"It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward"

So we have a knock on by the defence, in the in goal (the sanction for which is a 5m scrum attacking)

So turning to the scenario

2A .. But the attackers are free to take advantage of the defending knock on and play the ball. The arriving attacker does that and touches the ball down. Try

2D .. But the arriving defending player was in front of the knock on, so offside, and plays the ball.
Has to be a YC and very likely a PT ?

If not a PT then PK to attack 5m out
 
Last edited:

Stu10

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Let's look at 2A/2D ..
Law 11.2 says
"It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward"

So we have a knock on by the defence, in the in goal (the sanction for which is a 5m scrum attacking)

So turning to the scenario

2A .. But the attackers are free to take advantage of the defending knock on and play the ball. The arriving attacker does that and touches the ball down. Try

2D .. But the arriving defending player was in front of the knock on, so offside, and plays the ball.
Has to be a YC and very likely a PT ?

If not a PT then PK to attack 5m out
This perspective flips the answers around, and depends on how the tackler interacts with the ball. I think @smeagol was thinking the same as me, in 1A/1D there was contact but it wasn't a rip, therefore the attacker has lost the ball forward in the tackle... no rip by defender, therefore knock-on by attacker. Flipping it around, 2A/2D is the reverse, the ball is lost backwards in the tackle by the attacker, and is therefore live.

If you are saying the defender has knocked on, to me, this is typically one of two scenarios... the defender has slapped the ball out of the attackers hands and has gone forward from the defender, or, the defender has knocked the ball on in the process of tackling while the attacker was making a pass, as in the example video presented for Law 11.2. Since you did not clearly describe either of these two scenarios in your original post, I discounted this (also, this seemed unlikely in the case of a winger running round to the posts and being tackled)... obviously if I had seen the ball being slapped forward IRL then I would have made the same decisions you have presented.

Taking your new scenario and focusing on 2D, I would have to call it as I see it with regards to how obvious it was that a knock-on in the tackle happened vs the ball spilling loose from a tackle, and thus whether the subsequent action of the next defender might be considered a deliberate or accidental offside offence... others may consider me to be overly generous here, and this may be different for grass roots vs high level. If accidental, then attacking 5m scrum; if deliberate then YC plus penalty try or 5m penalty depending on whether the next person expected to get to the ball is an attacker or defender.
 

crossref


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My scenario was that the tackler makes contact with the ball (but not a deliberate knock of the ball just making contact as part of the tackle)

Which is defined by 11.2 as a knock on

This is indeed the issue that I was highlighting

(A deliberate knock or slap forward would be a PT in itself )
 

Stu10

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Law 11.2, as is often the case, cannot simply be taken literally IMHO.

It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward.
If the defender's thigh, for example, touches the ball in the tackle and the ball goes forward then it can't be considered a knock on, yet Law 11.2 simply says contact with the ball is enough. In my opinion the ball must go forward from the hand or arm in order to be a knock-on.

Maybe a more likely example is a mid-height tackle in which the defender's shoulder (or head) contacts and dislodges the ball - would you give a knock-on? I wouldn't.

I think law 11.2 is specifically related to the example in the video, in which the tackler's hand or arm, when moving forward in the act of wrapping the ball carrier, makes contact with the ball and propels it forward. Also if the defender rips the ball and it goes forward.
 
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