Tackle or not?

[Joe@trfc]

Red attacker with the ball is wrapped up by blue defender.
Blue defender half rips the ball and in the process red goes to his knees but holds on to the ball

I usually shout 'release' but often, red complains he was the ball carrier

Am I right?

 

[Taff]

Red attacker with the ball is wrapped up by blue defender. Blue defender half rips the ball and in the process red goes to his knees but holds on to the ball. I usually shout 'release' but often, red complains he was the ball carrier. Am I right?

We've kicked this about before; I don't know how much you get on here. At first I had argued that "going to ground" should not be treated the same as "brought to ground" but I will admit to changing my mind on it.

It is a tackle (as the ball carrier was "held and brought to ground") so the Blue player is expected to release first.

At first glance this seems harsh (Blue is trying to stay on his feet after all) but the good news for him is that as soon as he has released, he can go back for the ball and there's sod all the Red ball carrier can do about it.

So Blue will either get the ball or a PK for Red not releasing. Either way the one going to ground loses out. epper:

 

[Joe@trfc]

The only problem is of course, as Blue is not the tackler he has to come in from behind the ball!

 

[Browner]

Red attacker with the ball is wrapped up by blue defender.
Blue defender half rips the ball and in the process red goes to his knees but holds on to the ball

I usually shout 'release' but often, red complains he was the ball carrier

Am I right?

In the situation where a 1on1 wrestle develops and continues (that hasn't turned into a maul yet!) And the ball carriers knee goes down....you could quickly shout "TACKLE MADE" or "TACKLED"..... it gives both players a clear indication of the phase of play that you are now considering.

Its then much easier for everyone to accept your next decision .....

 

[Decorily]

The important bit of info we are not getting here is whether Blue himself, in the process of taking Red to ground, went to ground. If he did he is a tackler if not he is tackle assist. Important distinction to be made in how tackler/ assist can compete for the ball after carrier has gone to ground. Either way there must be a clear release of ball carrier and ball.

 

[Dixie]

The only problem is of course, as Blue is not the tackler he has to come in from behind the ball!

Depends what you mean by "come in".

[LAWS]15.6(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and
from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

You will see that there is no requirement to exit and re-enter. All he has to do is to ensure that he's behind the ball when he goes for it. This shoould be easy enough in the scenario you defined.

Note that calling "release" is confusing. Who should release what? It sounds as though you expect the ball carrier to release the ball to the tackler - this is the wrtong way round. The tackler should let go, so the ball carrier can then release or pass.

 

[ChrisR]

I like Browner's suggestion of "Tackle made!" or some such. It aptly describes the event and lets players know their responsibilities.

I used to be fond of yelling instructions for players. Now I think it's better to define what mode of play is happening, and then only when it may be ambiguous. Less can be more.

 

[sdingley]

A great thread

expanded scenario

red runs into blue... blue wraps him up... and in the process ties up the ball.

Red team mate arrives... Maul is formed and in the process red drops to 1 knee, but is then able to get back to both feet. Is this considered a tackle? Does the length of time spent on one knee count for anything?

17.6.g states "if the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available... What do you consider to be immediately?

 

[TigerCraig]

A great thread

expanded scenario

red runs into blue... blue wraps him up... and in the process ties up the ball.

Red team mate arrives... Maul is formed and in the process red drops to 1 knee, but is then able to get back to both feet. Is this considered a tackle? Does the length of time spent on one knee count for anything?

17.6.g states "if the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available... What do you consider to be immediately?

It can't be considered a tackle, as that is not one of the ways a maul can successfully end.

He has gone to ground and needs to make the ball available. To me "immediate" is as soon as an opponent wants it. Otherwise turnover scrum.

In practice if he briefly brushes a knee and forward motion continues it would generally stay a maul.

 

[OB..]

Depends what you mean by "come in".

[LAWS]15.6(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and
from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

You will see that there is no requirement to exit and re-enter. All he has to do is to ensure that he's behind the ball when he goes for it.

The bit I have emphasised says it is more than just behind the ball. My take is that the law is explaining what "exit and re-enter" would mean.

 

[Dixie]

Depends what you mean by "come in".

[LAWS]15.6(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

You will see that there is no requirement to exit and re-enter. All he has to do is to ensure that he's behind the ball when he goes for it. This should be easy enough in the scenario you defined.

The bit I have emphasised says it is more than just behind the ball. My take is that the law is explaining what "exit and re-enter" would mean.

If that is the case, it does a very poor job, OB - which (given the iRB's record on such things) is not to say you are wrong! But consider this...

Attacker well clear, only the full back to beat. Everyone else miles away and will play no part in this scenario. Defender attempts wrap tackle, turning the attacker, but attacker manages to go to ground. Defender by now is ahead of the ball, and facing his own posts. Attacker places ball a yard back from where he's lying - which is just beyond the defender's feet. Defender (who is behind the ball) kicks the ball.

In this scenario, PK against the defender. He played the ball while behind it, but not while behind the tackled player. So what could he have done?

Same scenario. Defender realises he has to get behind the tackled player as well as behind the ball before he can play it. He steps so that both feet are just behind the grounded tackled player, then steps forward and kicks the ball. Is this OK? He was always behind the ball, so that criterion is met. He also played the ball from directly behind the tackled player, so that criterion is met. He has complied fully with the law, without ever once stepping outside the tackle zone. QED.

 

[OB..]

If that is the case, it does a very poor job, OB - which (given the iRB's record on such things) is not to say you are wrong!

As you say ...

But consider this...

Attacker well clear, only the full back to beat. Everyone else miles away and will play no part in this scenario. Defender attempts wrap tackle, turning the attacker, but attacker manages to go to ground. Defender by now is ahead of the ball, and facing his own posts. Attacker places ball a yard back from where he's lying - which is just beyond the defender's feet. Defender (who is behind the ball) kicks the ball.

In this scenario, PK against the defender. He played the ball while behind it, but not while behind the tackled player. So what could he have done?

Same scenario. Defender realises he has to get behind the tackled player as well as behind the ball before he can play it. He steps so that both feet are just behind the grounded tackled player, then steps forward and kicks the ball. Is this OK? He was always behind the ball, so that criterion is met. He also played the ball from directly behind the tackled player, so that criterion is met. He has complied fully with the law, without ever once stepping outside the tackle zone. QED.

I think your second scenario is the one covered by the law. Note that the concept of the tackle zone is shorthand for what the law says. It is not a part of the law.

 

[sdingley]

Attacker well clear, only the full back to beat. Everyone else miles away and will play no part in this scenario. Defender attempts wrap tackle, turning the attacker, but attacker manages to go to ground. Defender by now is ahead of the ball, and facing his own posts. Attacker places ball a yard back from where he's lying - which is just beyond the defender's feet. Defender (who is behind the ball) kicks the ball.

In this scenario, PK against the defender. He played the ball while behind it, but not while behind the tackled player. So what could he have done?

QED.

If the defender dropped to one knee while still engaged in the wrap tackle, he would then be considered a "tackler", and can play the ball from any direction.

 

[Dixie]

If the defender dropped to one knee while still engaged in the wrap tackle, he would then be considered a "tackler", and can play the ball from any direction.

True - assuming he first regains his feet. I haven't seen you post before, sdlingley - good to have you on board.