[Law] Tap penalty to player already running: allowed?

FourOaksBookworm

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Blue have a penalty on opposition 5m line, opt for a tap. Prior to tap being taken big No8 starts running a line, so that at the point of tap and pass, he's at full tilt and unstoppable, in for a try under the posts.

Question: is this unlawful /dangerous? Obv flying wedge and the like are now outlawed, and at junior level the pop to an oncoming player isn't allowed, correct? But in conventional senior rugby, and to a single onrushing player?
 

L'irlandais

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While crossref is correct in saying if the Law doesn’t forbid it, then it is allowed.

However I think it depends, did it look dangerous to you? I get the feeling this is why you asked the question. If you think it was dangerous then perhaps
[LAWS]Law 9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.[/LAWS]Just above the law forbidding cavalry charges and flying wedges. This are not allowed for reasons of player safety, defenders would get hurt attempting to stop them. If the same were true of a one man charge, you might consider it foul play.

The Laws of the game are all about creating fair competition for possession of the ball. Is it not a bit unfair that the opposition cannot move until the free-kick is taken and yet we allow his teammate to run on to the kick and pop pass?
[LAWS]Law 20.16 As soon as the kicker initiates movement to kick, the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the free-kick being taken by tackling the kicker or to block the kick.[/LAWS]
 
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crossref


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But it's no different from a charging #8 receiving a pop pass from back of a ruck...
 

L'irlandais

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Fair enough, I think you are right in your interpretation.
But we are reading into [LAWS]Law20.10 Other than the placer at a place-kick, the kicker’s team must remain behind the ball until it has been kicked.[/LAWS]The opposition are not allowed to move, why assume that 20.10 is allowing wider scope to the attackers?
Remaining behind the ball, while running at speed, obeys the letter of the (poorly written?) law. But does it respect the spirit of what the law makers meant. Thinking of the restrictions on defenders.
Here the ball is dead and waiting a restart. In open play no such restrictions apply. So it is a bit different from a pop pass at the back of a ruck.
 
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crossref


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No, everyone is allowed to move, from both teams

(not at a place kick, obv, where oppo have to be still )
 

L'irlandais

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20.16 refers to a free-kick? Rather than a penalty kick where they are not allowed charge at all.
So defenders have to remain still until the ball is tapped, but the attackers can run on to it?
Defenders are allowed to retreat to their own goal line while waiting the tap.
 
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crossref


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Defenders don't have to remain still awaiting a tap..
On the contrary they have to retire 10m, and once they have they can still move about to defend the possible quick tap
 

L'irlandais

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It’s on the opposition 5 m so they only have to retire 5m to their goal line. Of course they can spread out laterally to defend the line. Are you saying 20.16 doesn’t oblige them to await the tap before moving forward once again?

On that basis, the attackers can also spread out latterally to get in a good position for a pass. Like a number 10 positioning to receive a pass from his scrum-half. But running full tilt onto the pop pass? Not entirely convinced. Certainly we see it in the Elite game, but then they have stretched the Laws to breaking point.
 
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Phil E


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What you are describing sounds like a one man cavalry charge.

[LAWS]Cavalry charge: An illegal type of attack, which usually happens near the goal line, when the
attacking team is awarded a penalty or free-kick. At a signal from the kicker, a line of attacking
players charge forward from a distance. When they get near, the kicker taps the ball and
passes to a player.[/LAWS]

The law wording has changed, it used to say "a single or line of players", so a single man cavalry charge was described and outlawed as foul play. That single player part has been removed in the latest online version (i'm not sure when).

So is a single man cavalry charge allowed? No idea :shrug:
I definitely wouldn't allow it in junior games, I would describe it as dangerous play.
 

crossref


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It’s on the opposition 5 m so they only have to retire 5m to their goal line. Of course they can spread out laterally to defend the line. Are you saying 20.16 doesn’t oblige them to await the tap before moving forward once again?

On that basis, the attackers can also spread out latterally to get in a good position for a pass. Like a number 10 positioning to receive a pass from his scrum-half. But running full tilt onto the pop pass? Not entirely convinced. Certainly we see it in the Elite game, but then they have stretched the Laws to breaking point.

Everyone can move about .
Of course they can't cross their respective offside lines, but as long as they are behind the line they can run in any direction they like
 

OB..


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The law wording has changed, it used to say "a single or line of players", so a single man cavalry charge was described and outlawed as foul play. That single player part has been removed in the latest online version (i'm not sure when).
2018.
 

crossref


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:
I definitely wouldn't allow it in junior games, I would describe it as dangerous play.

Running with excessive force :)

What would be your age cut off ?
 
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Marc Wakeham


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Blue have a penalty on opposition 5m line, opt for a tap. Prior to tap being taken big No8 starts running a line, so that at the point of tap and pass, he's at full tilt and unstoppable, in for a try under the posts.

Question: is this unlawful /dangerous? Obv flying wedge and the like are now outlawed, and at junior level the pop to an oncoming player isn't allowed, correct? But in conventional senior rugby, and to a single onrushing player?

Did you, as the ref, think it to be "Dangerous"? if so:

[LAWS]Law 9.11[/LAWS]
 

L'irlandais

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Everyone can move about .
Of course they can't cross their respective offside lines, but as long as they are behind the line they can run in any direction they like
If number 8 defender retreats to the dead ball line, he still has to wait for the tap before charging the kicker. So you cannot allow him to charge across the ingoal area on the assumption he will still be onside ( not crossed the goalline yet) by the time the ball is tapped. Then it seems to me to be favouring one team. The defenders already have been sanctioned territorially, letting the attackers take the ball at full tilt makes it impossible to defend against the free-kick. So you are gifting them 7 points for an offense that didn’t warrant a PK (3 points). Seems against the spirit of the LoTG
 
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crossref


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If number 8 defender retreats to the dead ball line, he still has to wait for the tap before charging the kicker. So you cannot allow him to charge across the ingoal area on the assumption he will still be onside ( not crossed the goalline yet) by the time the ball is tapped.

Why not ?

He is free to run around in circles or straight lines or wherever he wants, as long as he stays behind the line .

I don't see any problems with players who happen to be deep running forward as fast and as far as they can to defend the quick tap (indeed I would expect them to)
 
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didds

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Is it not a bit unfair that the opposition cannot move until the free-kick is taken and yet we allow his teammate to run on to the kick and pop pass?
[LAWS]Law 20.16 As soon as the kicker initiates movement to kick, the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the free-kick being taken by tackling the kicker or to block the kick.[/LAWS]

I guess that would also bring into question ruck ball with defenders static unable to progress past the rear feet offside line whilst an on rushing attacker can be at full tilt when the ball is popped up form the ruck into his hands with the defenders possibly as little as 2-3 metres away ...

UPDATE : sorry - I see CR raised this in post #4

didds
 
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Jz558


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Having started playing before this move was outlawed I saw numerous defenders knocked out defending short penalties (concussion hadn't been invented then so it was all right). I consequently feel quite strongly about it and was outraged when the law book wording was changed in 2018. The idea that it is no more dangerous than a short pass to the No8 off the back of a ruck is just not correct. The biggest forward given an unhindered passage to full steam who is then allowed to plough into a more or less static defence who even if they tackle the guy will ship the try or knock themselves bandy doesnt really strike me as something to be encouraged. The laws said it was illegal until 2018 because it was dangerous so dangerous it remains.
 

didds

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The idea that it is no more dangerous than a short pass to the No8 off the back of a ruck is just not correct.

The point being made - and certainly by me - is that the pop off a ruck IS the same level of danger etc as a FK/PK pop.

So IF one was to PK the FK pop, then presumably one would also PK the pop form a ruck. And vice versa - if you wouldnt PL the ruck pop, then why would you PK a FK pop.

didds
 

Jz558


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I see your point Didds but my basic argument is that the forces are not the same. In most (but I conceed not all cases) the receiver for a pop from a ruck almost never achieves full speed prior to taking the ball. Another point to consider is that from a 5m penalty the imperative to stop the ball carrier dead is paramount. At the majority of rucks if you take 6-7m to bring the ball carrier down that is acceptable and so the tackle technique can be adjusted.
 
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