These goal line dropouts

crossref


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So they are puzzling me - hard to understand the logic of them

[LAWS]
Play is restarted with a goal line drop-out when:

A) The ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is held up by an opponent.

B) An attacking kick, other than a kick-off, restart kick following a score, drop goal or penalty attempt, is grounded by the defending team in their own in-goal.

C) An attacking player knocks on in the opponents’ in-goal.
[/LAWS]

A - was previously an attacking 5m scrum
B - was previously a 22m DO
C - was previously a defending 5m scrum

So the new law is -

A - definitely better for the defenders
B - definitely better for the attackers
C - i think better for the defenders (or is it ?)

I am struggling to see the over-arching logic. Help me out ?
 
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chbg


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What the Lord giveth with one hand, He taketh away with the other.
 

Dickie E


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I am struggling to see the over-arching logic. Help me out ?

they see 5 metre scrums as a bit of a shit-fest and a slow way of restarting game. GL drop out overcomes that.
 

crossref


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they see 5 metre scrums as a bit of a shit-fest and a slow way of restarting game. GL drop out overcomes that.

But then why B where a goal line DO replaces a 22m DO ?
And also why haven't they replaced all 5m scrums ? We will still have them

This is what I mean, don't see their logic
 

Camquin

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Of course, they could just referee scrums correctly.
Got to go, here comes Nurse Cratchet with my medicine.
 

Dickie E


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So they are puzzling me - hard to understand the logic of them

[LAWS]
Play is restarted with a goal line drop-out when:

A) The ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is held up by an opponent.

B) An attacking kick, other than a kick-off, restart kick following a score, drop goal or penalty attempt, is grounded by the defending team in their own in-goal.

C) An attacking player knocks on in the opponents’ in-goal.
[/LAWS]

A - was previously an attacking 5m scrum
B - was previously a 22m DO
C - was previously a defending 5m scrum

So the new law is -

A - definitely better for the defenders
B - definitely better for the attackers
C - i think better for the defenders (or is it ?)

I am struggling to see the over-arching logic. Help me out ?

The thing that links A, B & C is that they are all non-foul play stoppages that occur in goal but not over DBL/TiG. I guess that is the logic.

The break to that logic is a knock-on in-goal by a defender (which I assume is still 5 metre attacking scrum)
 

crossref


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The thing that links A, B & C is that they are all non-foul play stoppages that occur in goal but not over DBL/TiG. I guess that is the logic.

The break to that logic is a knock-on in-goal by a defender (which I assume is still 5 metre attacking scrum)

5m scrums will still happen when
.. defenders knock on in goal (but not when attackers do)
.. defenders carry ball back in goal and make it dead in any way

Logic would suggest they would also be goal line drop outs

And don't forget it's not just 5m scrums that are replaced by gldo , in B it replaces a 22mdo
 

Stu10

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Is this being adopted at age-grade rugby this season (despite reg 15 still saying a 22 drop out for situation B)? At u14s a goal line drop out will typically not even get past the 22 line... I can see a lot a tries being walked in off the back of this.

The laws say the goal line drop out must not go directly into touch... if it does, the other team can choose a scrum or a line out... would that be 5 meters out from the goal line?
 

chbg


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Is this being adopted at age-grade rugby this season (despite reg 15 still saying a 22 drop out for situation B)? At u14s a goal line drop out will typically not even get past the 22 line... I can see a lot a tries being walked in off the back of this.

The laws say the goal line drop out must not go directly into touch... if it does, the other team can choose a scrum or a line out... would that be 5 meters out from the goal line?

1- Not below Under 15 Regulations in RFU. (So that's Under 16 age group until 31 Dec.)

2.Yes - the 'sanction line' is the 5m. (For 22DO the sanction line is the 22.)
 

beckett50


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Personally I have always had a problem with the 5m attacking scrum for a ball held up over the line. To my mind, if the defence have been canny enough/demonstrated great positive defensive play they deserve a reward. A 22DO would be too much, but a GLDO suffices.

As to the rest....
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Had a classic Saturday.
Attacker drops ball in act of scoring so GLDO.
Defender spots his winger is wide open on the other flank so attempts a quick one but assumes, RL style it has to be taken from under the posts so runs to the middle, hits the post with his kick and it doesn't go 5.
Scrum attack!
 

KoolFork

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So they are puzzling me - hard to understand the logic of them

[LAWS]
Play is restarted with a goal line drop-out when:

A) The ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is held up by an opponent.

B) An attacking kick, other than a kick-off, restart kick following a score, drop goal or penalty attempt, is grounded by the defending team in their own in-goal.

C) An attacking player knocks on in the opponents’ in-goal.
[/LAWS]

A - was previously an attacking 5m scrum
B - was previously a 22m DO
C - was previously a defending 5m scrum

So the new law is -

A - definitely better for the defenders
B - definitely better for the attackers
C - i think better for the defenders (or is it ?)

I am struggling to see the over-arching logic. Help me out ?

Assuming these law changes were made with the professional game uppermost, I agree that it's to get rid of scrums which, at this level, are less a way to re-start after a minor infringement, but coached to try and 'win' a penalty, maybe even a YC for repeated infringements. A (and to some extent C) also encourages attacking teams to be more creative.

B maybe just to speed up the game? The defending team might be more inclined to carry on, rather than dotting down?
 

Stu10

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1- Not below Under 15 Regulations in RFU. (So that's Under 16 age group until 31 Dec.)

2.Yes - the 'sanction line' is the 5m. (For 22DO the sanction line is the 22.)

Had a classic Saturday.
Attacker drops ball in act of scoring so GLDO.
Defender spots his winger is wide open on the other flank so attempts a quick one but assumes, RL style it has to be taken from under the posts so runs to the middle, hits the post with his kick and it doesn't go 5.
Scrum attack!

Even though it was an away game I was originally asked to referee our u15 match (using u14 regs) this past weekend, however the hosting team subsequently secured the service of a local Society ref... sadly, it was a disappointing experience! The match started with our team being penalised three times in a row for not releasing when a maul was formed (and called) and the the ball carrier went to ground in the middle of the maul (our team adapted after that). Then we had a player yellow carded for 6 minutes (I asked after 5 minutes had passed because I was concerned he was going to 10 minutes)... the ref told me 6 minutes was the shortest time allowed at any age level for a suspended player. (Has this changed, have I got it wrong?)

Back to topic here, the ref did award a GLDO (even though we were playing U14 regs)... knock on by the attacking side in goal. The ref told them it had to be taken from under the posts (the knock-on was 10m in from the touchline) and "must be taken without delay" (ref has obviously read reg 12.13), so our fly-half sprinted 25m over to the posts, rushed his kick, hooked it badly and made about 10 metres up the pitch. Thankfully our winger chased well and tackled the catcher and we scrambled a successful defence.

The ref was a nice bloke, and happy to discuss his decisions with coaches (which is great), but disappointing that a Society ref is getting some fundamentals wrong.

Discussion point... I'm not sure due to the view I had, but I think the ball was lost forward within the field of play, crossed the goal line while airborne, and hit the ground in-goal. (If we were playing u15 reg), my interpretation would have been a 5m scrum to the defending team. I'm also wondering if it's valid to offer the defending team of scrum or GLDO, similar to a scrum or lineout option when lost forward into touch, however, I don't think the requirements have been met to allow the GLDO option.
 

Flish


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Been discussed, and argued! Many times, but for me knock on from field of play into in goal is advantage, if none then back for a scrum 5. This wouldn’t change with GLDO as from in the field of play (you are correct, GLDO shouldn’t have applied for this game).

If this game were in January, and knock on was in goal, then yes it would be a GLDO, if no advantage
 

chbg


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Stu, you will have realised that the 'society' ref had not read up on his RFU Under 14 Regs (Reg 15 Appendix 8), which are actually a very good description of hos the game is to be played, presumably written for those moving on from the Under 13 age group. I now, as I've had to read them for an U15 (with U14 Regs) school match tomorrow (and no, the master in charge of the home school did not know that!).

Was he a Society appointment, or just wearing the jersey? I would say that, after a couple of days, it would be well worth approaching the Society Secretary with the very obvious Law issues (e.g. over 5 mins for the YC, awarding a GDLO, which had to be taken under the posts) rather than any management or play interpretation concerns (which can give the impression of tinted spectacles). If you don't then next week's teams will be faced with the same issues (as we often say for next week's referee with difficult teams).
 

Stu10

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Stu, you will have realised that the 'society' ref had not read up on his RFU Under 14 Regs (Reg 15 Appendix 8), which are actually a very good description of hos the game is to be played, presumably written for those moving on from the Under 13 age group. I now, as I've had to read them for an U15 (with U14 Regs) school match tomorrow (and no, the master in charge of the home school did not know that!).

Was he a Society appointment, or just wearing the jersey? I would say that, after a couple of days, it would be well worth approaching the Society Secretary with the very obvious Law issues (e.g. over 5 mins for the YC, awarding a GDLO, which had to be taken under the posts) rather than any management or play interpretation concerns (which can give the impression of tinted spectacles). If you don't then next week's teams will be faced with the same issues (as we often say for next week's referee with difficult teams).

Thanks for the useful input, it's appreciated. TBH, it is very common that Society appointed refs do not know the correct variations for the age group they are refereeing... while I sympathise that it's hard to keep up when you probably jump from a senior game to u14 and then to colts in successive weeks, I personally feel the responsibility still lies with the referees to know the laws for that match and (especially) the players get very confused if the ref is playing a different game to them.

You raise an interesting point about each Reg 15 appendix being written for those moving on from the previous age group... I was discussing this with the ref before the game when he was saying he felt at u15 they should just be playing full adult laws to keep it simple rather than additional variations to think about... I pointed out that the boys don't know the full laws so it is not making it simpler for them, and the transition of adding a little bit each year makes it easier for them... it also makes it easier for me as a ref who has only refereed at the age-grade of our team. He did agree after I explained that.

Regarding approaching the Society Secretary, I'll bring it up with our head coach. I would like to join the local Society myself, so that might also be an opportunity to raise concern over the inconsistency of appointed referees playing the correct regs for the age group. I suppose if I don't say something then I'm dodging my responsibilities and next week's team may face the same issues
:confused:
 
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didds

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You raise an interesting point about each Reg 15 appendix being written for those moving on from the previous age group... I was discussing this with the ref before the game when he was saying he felt at u15 they should just be playing full adult laws to keep it simple rather than additional variations to think about... I pointed out that the boys don't know the full laws so it is not making it simpler for them, and the transition of adding a little bit each year makes it easier for them... it also makes it easier for me as a ref who has only refereed at the age-grade of our team. He did agree after I explained that.

I wont even start on the coaching implicdations of preparing young players, only just into adolescence and body changes, being able to deliver the full senior laws at the age of 14 (some of whom could be 14 years and a few days at season start).

though happy to expound if you really want to endure my wibbling! ;-)

didds
 

Flish


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I wont even start on the coaching implicdations of preparing young players, only just into adolescence and body changes, being able to deliver the full senior laws at the age of 14 (some of whom could be 14 years and a few days at season start).

though happy to expound if you really want to endure my wibbling! ;-)

didds

I coach U15s, and were were in the pilot CB for the new rules of play back when, so my lot have only known the current progressions, so based on that history they couldn't just jump into full 15 aside laws, especially having lost all of last season, their scrum technique and training levels are poor, basic line out set piece is also poor (and this is jumping unopposed, no lifting), all because they've had very little practice - yet they are one of the top teams in the region.

In contrast, we've just lost a Japanese lad who was with us two years, so joined at U13 and only knew full U15 laws as that's how he'd been coached from the beginning, or certainly a good few years, he could tackle, kick, scrum, his breakdown work was years ahead of the others. Sure some was natural talent, but mostly he's been doing it for years. So could they go into 15 aside games earlier like we used to? Sure, but one way or the other they need lots of practice and development to be competent and safe. We can't just change it on the spin though.

As to refs knowing the new rules of play, absolutely on them to know the regs for the game they are about to ref - however age grade is much more than that, up to and including U14 they are also expected to be able to 'guide and advise' not just referee, and that's experience that a lot of referees don't have, and it shows in their empathy and how they manage youth games. I have the opposite problem, I get accused of coaching too much in adult games!
 

crossref


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In my experience it's very unusual (almost unheard of) for society to appoint to an u14 game, so it's more likely someone appointed by the club and wearing his society shirt

Which is exactly why you are not allowed to wear your shirt if not appointed.

If I ever did appoint someone to an u14 game I would be first checking that he knew (or was prepared to learn) u14 regs, as that is quite specialist knowledge..

Society refs also need to DBS checked to do u14 now..
 
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