thoughts on this one

Ian_Cook


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[LAWS]THE OPPOSING TEAM AT A CONVERSION
14. All opposing players retire to their goal line and do not overstep that line until the kicker
begins the approach to kick.
When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to
prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.

Sanction : If the opposing team at a conversion attempt infringes but the kick is successful,
the goal stands. If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker retakes the conversion and the opposing
team is not allowed to charge. When another kick is allowed, the kicker may repeat all the
preparations. The kicker may change the type of kick.[/LAWS]

Interesting one.

The kicker had only two other goal kicks in the game... both of them conversions of the first two tries, and on both previous occasions, he did not take that sideways step. However, those tries were both scored closer to the posts, and I know that a lot of kickers don't go through their whole routine for the "easier" kicks.

Whether or not you think the referee got this right or wrong will probably depend on your judgement of whether the kicker's step was him beginning the appraoch to kick.

IMO, the approach to kick needs to be a clear and obvious step to towards the ball, so in this referee's position, I would have allowed the kicker another attempt, with no charge.

NOTE: If I had my way, we would do away with the charge altogether. It serves no useful purpose and its just an unnecessary waste of time - how often do you see a successful charge down? 1 in 200, 500, 1000. (I never saw one i a game I was involved in in my years as a referee and player).
 

Dickie E


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Whether or not you think the referee got this right or wrong will probably depend on your judgement of whether the kicker's step was him beginning the appraoch to kick.

IMO, the approach to kick needs to be a clear and obvious step to towards the ball, so in this referee's position, I would have allowed the kicker another attempt, with no charge.

I'm looking at this from a slightly different angle.

I agree that the sideways step wasn't an approach to kick and the defenders were in error to charge when they did.

However, the kicker maintained his position and the referee instructed the defenders to retire to the goal line (which they did). Presumably the kicker could have then recommenced his set up (which he chose not to do). So I'm going with the ref on this one.

Let me ask this as a hypothetical.

Kicker sets up and defenders charge early before kicker has approached to kick. Ref sends them back and tells them no charge. Kicker asks ref if he can set up again and ref agrees.

Kicker completes kick and it misses. Does he get another go? Law would suggest that he does.
 

Ian_Cook


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I'm looking at this from a slightly different angle.

I agree that the sideways step wasn't an approach to kick and the defenders were in error to charge when they did.

However, the kicker maintained his position and the referee instructed the defenders to retire to the goal line (which they did). Presumably the kicker could have then recommenced his set up (which he chose not to do). So I'm going with the ref on this one.

Let me ask this as a hypothetical.

Kicker sets up and defenders charge early before kicker has approached to kick. Ref sends them back and tells them no charge. Kicker asks ref if he can set up again and ref agrees.

Kicker completes kick and it misses. Does he get another go? Law would suggest that he does.


Tough one

Q1. Is the kick "unsuccessful" because the kicker never actually attempted it due to the early charge?

A2. The law does not specify.

Q2. "Ref sends them back and tells them no charge"... Is that what the Laws says?

A2. Will depend on your interpretation of the Law as regards Q1

Now my question. Assuming that a referee does what you suggest... is the countdown clock then restarted? If not, then I can see shenanigans as a result... teams deliberately early charging to put the kicker off, and as a bonus, cutting his time down to prepare, so putting him under pressure to get it done quickly.

As I said... do away with the charge altogether, and all those unnessesary problems evaporate
 

Ciaran Trainor


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That link doesn't work in NH but the game can be searched on you tube.
It is a grey area of Law that perhaps needs clarification.
I've seen this happen many times at my level and have done the same as this ref. Sent them back and no charge if the kicker hasn't started. if you miss you miss but am now doubting myself.
For the record I've seen quite a few charge downs over the years. Integral part of the game that should be kept.
 

tim White


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Left over from the days of forming a divot for the ball -or a pile of sand, the ball could fall over -the chargers prevented the kick With the new fangled plastic trumpets the ball does not fall over.
 

crossref


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I am intrigued by this bit
[LAWS]Sanction: If the opposing team at a conversion attempt infringes but the kick is successful, the goal stands. If the kick is unsuccessful, the kicker retakes the conversion and the opposing team is not allowed to charge.When another kick is allowed, the kicker may repeat all the preparations. The kicker may change the type of kick. [/LAWS]

So the kicker could take a quick tap and run ?
 

Dickie E


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Run where? It's a conversion
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Left over from the days of forming a divot for the ball -or a pile of sand, the ball could fall over -the chargers prevented the kick With the new fangled plastic trumpets the ball does not fall over.

Ahem, Tim, falls over more especially in windy Cumbria, You should know that:smile:.
Now then should we have the debate about allowing the "Trumpet bringer on" to hold the ball rather than a player which I know is technically the right thing to but just slows the game down:Nerv:
 

crossref


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Ahem, Tim, falls over more especially in windy Cumbria, You should know that:smile:.
Now then should we have the debate about allowing the "Trumpet bringer on" to hold the ball rather than a player which I know is technically the right thing to but just slows the game down:Nerv:

I would welcome a simple 'bringer on of the trumpet'
my experience is more often than not an unwilling 'searcher for the trumpet' who furiously delves into and underneath the kit bags muttering 'FFS' under his breath , while the oppo captain noisily declaims 'he's only got 90s sir !"
 

Jz558


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In general, given the proliferaton of kicking coaches, I am surprised that any professional kicker still has a movement during their set up that could be misinterpreted as the beginning of the approach to kick. In this instance, having placed the ball and retiring, he then moves forward towards the ball before retiring a second time and standing still. Having paused for several seconds, he then has a definite sideways movement before pausing again. I think the defending side would be within their rights to interpret the sideways movement after such a pronounced pause as the "begining of his approach".

As an aside, commentators who don't know the laws are not in themselves problematic providing they dont pretend they do and misquote the laws to the viewing public.
 

crossref


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before long I think WR will make referees give a signal to show that the approach has commenced and they can charge.

like we do at lineouts to say the lineout is over and players can come up
 

Flish


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before long I think WR will make referees give a signal to show that the approach has commenced and they can charge.

like we do at lineouts to say the lineout is over and players can come up

To be fair I quite often do this in junior games where it's all a new process, I hold my palm up horizontally in a stop gesture until the kicker begin the approach, if it helps them learn expectations when a good thing IMO
 

Zebra1922


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I consider any movement by the kicker as the commencement of their approach. There is nothing in the law that says the approach must be forward. If the trigger move is a step back or sideways, then forward, to me they have commenced their approach and defenders are entitled to charge.
 

crossref


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I consider any movement by the kicker as the commencement of their approach. There is nothing in the law that says the approach must be forward. If the trigger move is a step back or sideways, then forward, to me they have commenced their approach and defenders are entitled to charge.

I look for feet to move (in any direction) I don't mind the Bigarena
 

Jarrod Burton


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We've got a kicker down here who takes an initial step in the same direction each time (left hand side of their body - I'm not sure who coached that into them) and depending on where they are located on the field, that step can be towards the in-goal area, even though its not clearly towards the ball. Step, pause, then approach.
It often sets the runners off and he whines about it every time. My response - change your style, you've clearly moved towards the in-goal and that looks like an approach to the ball to those guys.
 

Ian_Cook


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I consider any movement by the kicker as the commencement of their approach. There is nothing in the law that says the approach must be forward.

Really? I have always use the standard English meaning of "approach"!

approch (transitive verb)
1a : to draw closer to : approach a destination

If the trigger move is a step back or sideways, then forward, to me they have commenced their approach and defenders are entitled to charge.

The ball is always between the kicker and the posts, its damned hard to get closer to it if you step away from it, or sideways.

This law is probably unchanged since it was written, when rugby players wore square-toed boots and goal-kickers walked straight back and approached straight in and kicked the ball with the toe, torpedo style.

Then Barry John came along in 1969 and kicked it "soccer" style, changing the way almost every goal-kicker does it.

Fast forward 52 years, and the geniuses at the IRFU/IRB/WR still haven't noticed!
 
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