Tigers front row give Irish wings

[Alastair]

I was left troubled and reflective watching Tigers v Irish on Sunday. The Irish props were lifted off the ground at least twice which I believe is very dangerous. Having spent many pleasurable hours in the front row, having lifted and having been lifted I believe it only happens after an illegal / upward push by a dominant prop.

So... Wayne Barnes and other refs are being too lenient to dominant front rows? If you are stronger you can maintain a level push.

 

[menace]

I was left troubled and reflective watching Tigers v Irish on Sunday. The Irish props were lifted off the ground at least twice which I believe is very dangerous. Having spent many pleasurable hours in the front row, having lifted and having been lifted I believe it only happens after an illegal / upward push by a dominant prop.

So... Wayne Barnes and other refs are being too lenient to dominant front rows? If you are stronger you can maintain a level push.

I haven't seen the game, but good to see a FR admit that sometimes a dominant FR still undertakes illegal acts. :clap::clap:
So you don't mind us referees sanctioning a dominant FR player? I'd certainly appreciate any advice or hints from your experience and perspective as to how we can detect when a dominant FR player is deliberately pushing up on his opposite....what are the tell tale signs that we should look out for?

 

[irishref]

You have to ask yourself as ref - how is the dominance achieved. Pushing up is not permitted and as a small ex-FR myself (albeit low level) I feel it is never done by accident.

 

[FlipFlop]

As Brian Moore has said before - any prop whose feet come off the ground, the opposite prop has to be driving up. It is not possible to levitate....

I have had an assessor take me apart for penalising a dominant scrum, when the dominance came from driving up, and the opposite prop was repeatedly being lifted off the ground.

I think a lot of the issues in the scrum have come from refs not understanding the dynamics of the scrum, so looking for "simple" tells, or way for them all to be consistent (in this case - "reward dominance").

 

[OB..]

If a prop is pushing straight and level but his opponent goes over the top of him, won't the force applied by the opponent's second row force him up in the air?

Just asking.

 

[Phil E]

As Brian Moore has said before - any prop whose feet come off the ground, the opposite prop has to be driving up. It is not possible to levitate.....

My knowledge isn't anywhere near Brian's, but I would contest that. It's simple physics and levers.

1. If the opposition prop drives up, the other prop will go up (as in stand up), but generally keep his feet on the floor. Opposition prop is to blame.
   
2. If the second row drives upwards, with his shoulder under the props backside, it will lift the props feet off the floor. Second row is to blame.
   
3. If opposition prop and own second row drive flat and level, but the prop in between is bent over, as opposed to having a flat back, then he can be jack-knifed into the air. He is to blame.

 

[ChrisR]

Here is a previous thread on this: http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18060-Scrum-issue-decision

For me, regardless of the cause, when a props feet come off the ground it's a whistle NOW.

Phil E makes some good points but one of the tells is the position of the ops props hips. If his hips are below his shoulders then he is driving up.

 

[ianh5979]

Here is a previous thread on this: http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18060-Scrum-issue-decision

For me, regardless of the cause, when a props feet come off the ground it's a whistle NOW.
I Agree
Phil E makes some good points but one of the tells is the position of the ops props hips. If his hips are below his shoulders then he is driving up.

Problem there is props are not allowed their shoulders to be below hips, so unless their backs are perfectly flat, he is either driving up or down by your terms

 

[ChrisR]

Not looking for "perfectly flat" but when a the prop starts flat then drops his hips then his intent is to drive up.

 

[MattyP]

Phil E is spot on. I have had the very unfortunate experience playing 3 to go sky high - inexperienced but strong second row got too low on my thigh and drove up. It's quite scary. Luckily the oppo 1 was very experienced Kiwi oldboy and played to the "code" - immediately backed off, rather than taking advantage of the situation. We had a chat and sorted it out, and a beer afterwards. The 1 had any number of tricks up his sleave, but lifting me wasn't one.

I have also seen week/inexperienced/out of position tighthead props go "Skylab" due to being buckled, through no fault of the 1. Though this is mainly low grade stuff. I suspect Brian Moore is only talking about the professionals in the big show.