Time to touch down

Jarrod Burton


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
725
Post Likes
208
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Hi Guys,

I had a very lopsided game today, 111-10, legs are shattered.

One question - when a player misses a penalty kick at goal and the defender catches the ball, how long to they have to ground it to get the dropout option. I've always thought it was pretty much immediately but now I'm not so sure.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Hi Guys,

I had a very lopsided game today, 111-10, legs are shattered.

One question - when a player misses a penalty kick at goal and the defender catches the ball, how long to they have to ground it to get the dropout option. I've always thought it was pretty much immediately but now I'm not so sure.

You are getting your Laws mixed up there I think Jarrod. There isn't any time limit as such after a missed PK, a player is allowed to look around and weigh up what they want to do, and if they touch the ball down, the 22DO is the only option.

What you are thinking of when the ball goes into in-goal from a kick off or a restart kick, or a drop-out

[LAWS]LAW 13 - KICK OFF AND RESTART KICKS[/LAWS]
[LAWS]13.9 BALL GOES INTO THE IN-GOAL

(b) If the opposing team grounds the ball, or if they make it dead, or if the ball becomes dead
by going into touch-in-goal, or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:
• To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball, or
• To have the other team kick off again.

(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other
action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.


(d) If the ball does not travel ten metres and ends up in the kicking team’s in-goal and:
• it is made dead by a defending player, or
• the ball goes into touch in goal, or
• lands on or over the dead ball line;
a 5-metre scrum is awarded and the attacking team throw in. [/LAWS]
[LAWS]13.15 DROP-OUT GOES INTO THE OPPONENTS’ IN-GOAL

(a) If the ball is kicked into the opponents’ in-goal without having touched or been touched by a
player, the opposing team has three choices:
• To ground the ball, or
• To make it dead, or
• To play on.

(b) If the opposing team grounds the ball, or makes it dead, or if the ball becomes dead by
going into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:
• To have a scrum formed at the centre of the 22-metre line from where the kick was taken
and they throw in the ball, or
• To have the other team drop-out again.

(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other
action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.
[/LAWS]
 
Last edited:

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Kick-off goes into goal. Receiver, staying in goal, holds the ball and does not ground it "without delay". As a chaser from the kicking team approaches the receiver then grounds the ball.

At this point I assume that the opportunity for a scrum at center has been lost and the delayed grounding will now result in a 22 drop out.

Although not required I think it good practice for the referee to give a warning of "Ground it or play on" or some such.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Kick-off goes into goal. Receiver, staying in goal, holds the ball and does not ground it "without delay". As a chaser from the kicking team approaches the receiver then grounds the ball.

At this point I assume that the opportunity for a scrum at center has been lost and the delayed grounding will now result in a 22 drop out.

Although not required I think it good practice for the referee to give a warning of "Ground it or play on" or some such.
Not really practical. By the time the referee decides a reminder is needed, the player has already delayed.
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Kick-off goes into goal. Receiver, staying in goal, holds the ball and does not ground it "without delay". As a chaser from the kicking team approaches the receiver then grounds the ball.

At this point I assume that the opportunity for a scrum at center has been lost and the delayed grounding will now result in a 22 drop out.

Although not required I think it good practice for the referee to give a warning of "Ground it or play on" or some such.

Agree, given that there will be wide referee variances on 'without delay' ( as there invariably is with immediately) some kinda warning makes sense, as long as its not "Use It" cos that will no doubt be taken to mean they have 5s to dilly dally .
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
And after a ko they only need to act without delay if they want the scrum back / kick again option. If they delay, and then touch down, they still get the 22m drop out
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Not really practical. By the time the referee decides a reminder is needed, the player has already delayed.

... and now we start a discussion as to the difference between "immediately" and "without delay".

I think there is a moment when the player picks up the ball instead of grounding it that a call of "Ground it or play on" is appropriate.

If the law said "immediately" then I would say that you are correct and I would expect the receiving player to simply ground it and for him to pick it up he has "played on".
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
What would yo do in this situation:

Blue kicks off and ball rolls into Red in-goal. Red player stops the ball with his foot. Another Red player, coming from an onside position, dives on and grounds the ball.

Restart?
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
Dickie E:301002 said:
What would yo do in this situation:

Blue kicks off and ball rolls into Red in-goal. Red player stops the ball with his foot. Another Red player, coming from an onside position, dives on and grounds the ball.

Restart?

Dropout
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2


I agree, because "If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other
action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on
."

By stopping the ball with his foot, he has done an action other than grounding the ball.

(I think I know what the counter to that might be, but I'm going to keep my powder dry for now)
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
... and if, instead, the first player to the ball simply picks it up and dabs it down?

... or stops the ball with his foot and reaches down and grounds it?

C'mon, please, scrum center.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
... and if, instead, the first player to the ball simply picks it up and dabs it down?

... or stops the ball with his foot and reaches down and grounds it?

C'mon, please, scrum center.

For me 1 is making the ball dead without delay, so that is OK, and scrum of kick option remains. Similarly I would allow a stop with a foot and then bend down to ground it to mean that the options are on, but I think I would draw the line at another player actually grounding it. I would also allow eg a catcher of the ball to be told to ground it the time to follow the instruction and not consider that a delay.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,804
Post Likes
3,145
Marauder:301007 said:
... and if, instead, the first player to the ball simply picks it up and dabs it down?

... or stops the ball with his foot and reaches down and grounds it?

C'mon, please, scrum center.

For those two examples I agree.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
... and now we start a discussion as to the difference between "immediately" and "without delay".
I don't. I go back to my view that we cannot forensically dissect the words. Since WR did not bother to define a distinction, I think it best not to infer one. We have no basis for doing so.

I think there is a moment when the player picks up the ball instead of grounding it that a call of "Ground it or play on" is appropriate.
Not my view.

If the law said "immediately" then I would say that you are correct and I would expect the receiving player to simply ground it and for him to pick it up he has "played on".
I think that is a common view. "There is no point in picking the ball up if you want the option, so don't do it" is what I was always told. You certainly don't want to risk a knock-on.

Of course if it bounces up you may have to catch it. Option if you ground it immediately without looking up.
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
The requirement to act "without delay" was, to my mind, included in the laws to prevent some smart ass from waltzing around in goal with the ball in hand until threatened by an opponent then grounding the ball and claiming the scrum center.

No need to be a pedant.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Expert
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
If the player passes or runs / walks with the ball then "without delay" has gone If he stands still he might get a more "lenient" interpretation.

If a second player touches down? I doubt that is immediate.
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Pegleg, the law doesn't require 'immediate', just 'without delay'.

Now, OB doesn't see a difference but I do.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Pegleg, the law doesn't require 'immediate', just 'without delay'.

Now, OB doesn't see a difference but I do.
Why? It just complicates matters, particularly since AFAIK there is no general agreement on what the difference might be.

Maybe you have in mind a difference that you think is a good idea, but unless referees both know and agree, I don't see that it helps.
 
Top