[Law] TJ Perenara's Bluff

The Fat


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How many people currently watching the Reds v Hurricanes game are shaking their heads at how TJ Perenara just bluffed Angus Gardner.
Hurricanes attacking 5m scrum, get the push on and AG signals advantage and then blows for the PK. Without picking up the ball, which is on the ground and on the mark, Perenara appears to tap the ball, pick it up and dart over for the try before the scrum has even broken up. AG awards the try but before the kick is taken, the TMO tells AG that Perenara missed tapping the ball with his foot.
AG changes his decision and awards a 5m scrum to the Reds for the incorrectly taken quick tap. As he is explaining to Perenara the reversed decision, Perenara says, "But it would still be our PK then". AG replies, "Fair point"' and changes his decision from a Red scrum to a PK to the Hurricanes.

Oh dear.
 

Taff


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Is this an April Fool joke? :chin:
 

ChuckieB

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The PK laws don't mention an "erroneous" kick, i.e. specifically not even kicking it, as actually an infringement and therefore he was entitled to have his valid attempt.

I am thinking:

A bit like a quickly taken penalty from the wrong mark. Referee pretty much just pulls them back to take it properly in every instance that he doesn't let it go to start with!

But really:

We know he get's away with one......It's TJP remember!
 
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Pegleg

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How many people currently watching the Reds v Hurricanes game are shaking their heads at how TJ Perenara just bluffed Angus Gardner.
Hurricanes attacking 5m scrum, get the push on and AG signals advantage and then blows for the PK. Without picking up the ball, which is on the ground and on the mark, Perenara appears to tap the ball, pick it up and dart over for the try before the scrum has even broken up. AG awards the try but before the kick is taken, the TMO tells AG that Perenara missed tapping the ball with his foot.
AG changes his decision and awards a 5m scrum to the Reds for the incorrectly taken quick tap. As he is explaining to Perenara the reversed decision, Perenara says, "But it would still be our PK then". AG replies, "Fair point"' and changes his decision from a Red scrum to a PK to the Hurricanes.

Oh dear.

Agreed. However, it has become a custom to allow the retake at the elite level.

21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line
through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the goal line,
the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement.
(b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play,
5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal
line in line with the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

(c) If a quickly taken penalty kick or free kick is taken from the wrong place the referee will order
the kick to be taken again.
21.3 HOW THE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) Any player may take a penalty or free kick awarded for an infringement with any type of
kick: punt, drop kick or place kick. The ball may be kicked with any part of the lower leg from
knee to the foot, excluding the knee and the heel.
(b) Bouncing the ball on the knee is not taking a kick.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The
opposing team throws in the ball.
 

The Fat


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About which particular element were you raising the "Oh" dear about?

or was it just a collective, "Oh dear."?

21.3 How the penalty and free kicks are taken

(a) Any player may take a penalty or free kick awarded for an infringement with any type of kick: punt, drop kick or place kick. The ball may be kicked with any part of the lower leg from knee to the foot, excluding the knee and the heel.

(b) Bouncing the ball on the knee is not taking a kick.

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.
(c) The kicker must use the ball that was in play unless the referee decides it was defective.

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements

(d) A clear kick. The kicker must kick the ball a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark

Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.


Angus Gardner already had the correct sanction for the incorrectly taken PK. Perenara managed to convince him he didn't
 

chbg


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But:

[LAWS]21.2 if a quickly taken penalty or free kick is taken from the wrong place, the referee will order the kick to be taken again.[/LAWS]

An inference can be that is more latitude for a quickly taken PK / FK to be taken again, whilst a 'deliberate' PK / FK must be taken correctly.

In this instance, it is unlikely that TJP intentionally missed kicking the ball.

It wasn't so long ago that we were chastising players for not knowing the Law! Even if AG also forgot the bit about altering his decision.
 

Ian_Cook


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How many people currently watching the Reds v Hurricanes game are shaking their heads at how TJ Perenara just bluffed Angus Gardner.
Hurricanes attacking 5m scrum, get the push on and AG signals advantage and then blows for the PK. Without picking up the ball, which is on the ground and on the mark, Perenara appears to tap the ball, pick it up and dart over for the try before the scrum has even broken up. AG awards the try but before the kick is taken, the TMO tells AG that Perenara missed tapping the ball with his foot.
AG changes his decision and awards a 5m scrum to the Reds for the incorrectly taken quick tap. As he is explaining to Perenara the reversed decision, Perenara says, "But it would still be our PK then". AG replies, "Fair point"' and changes his decision from a Red scrum to a PK to the Hurricanes.

Oh dear.


And TJP was absolutely correct in Law, and Angus Gardiner was correct to change his decision.

21.3 How the penalty and free kicks are taken

(a) Any player may take a penalty or free kick awarded for an infringement with any type of kick: punt, drop kick or place kick. The ball may be kicked with any part of the lower leg from knee to the foot, excluding the knee and the heel.

(b) Bouncing the ball on the knee is not taking a kick.

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.
(c) The kicker must use the ball that was in play unless the referee decides it was defective.

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements

(d) A clear kick. The kicker must kick the ball a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark

Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.


Angus Gardner already had the correct sanction for the incorrectly taken PK. Perenara managed to convince him he didn't

None of this applies.

There is no Law in the book that allows a scrum to be ordered for what happened because TJP did not commit any infringement. He simply picked up the ball and ran... it wasn't an incorrect type of kick or a bounce off the knee, which are the only infringements for which a scrum can be ordered. Why should Gold be disadvantaged because the AG initially failed to notice that TJP hadn't kicked the ball.

If you can show me a Law that says a player failing to kick the ball at all at a PK/FK is an infringement, I'll happily recant.



ETA: Oh, and just to get the pot boiling a little more, technically, the try could have been allowed.

After AG blew the whistle, the Gold no 8 tapped the ball with his foot, and then TJP picked it up and ran.

It could be argued that the No. 8 took the tap kick and TJP picked up the kicked ball and ran. There is nothing in law that says the player who kicked the ball has to be the one who runs with it; once any player from the non-infringing team kicks the ball... game on.. When a player kicks the ball at a PK, any player can pick it up, then run, pass or kick it.
 
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Ian_Cook


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It wasn't so long ago that we were chastising players for not knowing the Law! Even if AG also forgot the bit about altering his decision.

Wait, you think a referee can't change his decision when he know he has got something wrong.
 

The Fat


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And TJP was absolutely correct in Law, and Angus Gardiner was correct to change his decision.

If you can show me a Law that says a player failing to kick the ball at all at a PK/FK is an infringement, I'll happily recant.

Really?

I already have Ian.

21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements
(d) A clear kick. The kicker must kick the ball a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark
Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.


If you check the on-line LoTG and watch the video attached to this Law, you will see what we have always known i.e. if a RL style tap is taken, a scrum is awarded.
The Law is very clear. It MUST be a clear kick and if the ball is on the ground, the ball MUST clearly leave the mark.
 

The Fat


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But:

[LAWS]21.2 if a quickly taken penalty or free kick is taken from the wrong place, the referee will order the kick to be taken again.[/LAWS]

An inference can be that is more latitude for a quickly taken PK / FK to be taken again, whilst a 'deliberate' PK / FK must be taken correctly.

In this instance, it is unlikely that TJP intentionally missed kicking the ball.

It wasn't so long ago that we were chastising players for not knowing the Law! Even if AG also forgot the bit about altering his decision.

21.4(d) is the law that specifically deals with this
 

Dickie E


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all academic. Ball was never outside 5 metres.

As a general rule, I look for intent. If the player intended to kick the ball and messed it up, scrum to opposition.
 
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The Fat


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all academic. Ball was never outside 5 metres.

Good spot Dickie.
If it was taken from the wrong place instead of taken incorrectly, it changes the outcome.
The TMO was only interested in how the quick tap was taken and missed where the quick tap was taken.

I'll have to watch a video to see how far forward of the 5m line PJT was
 

Ian_Cook


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Really?

I already have Ian.

No, you see, you actually haven't

21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements
(d) A clear kick. The kicker must kick the ball a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark
Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

I have highlighted the salient part!

What infringement did TJP commit?

Did he kick the ball with the wrong type of kick? No
Did he kick the ball with his heel? No
Did he kick the ball with his knee? No
Did he kick the ball such that the ball didn't leave his hand? No

In fact, he did not kick the ball at all therefore he did not commit an infringement under the laws of the game. There is nothing to stop him picking up the ball and running in any direction he wishes. He can pass it to a team-mate to take the kick or run the ball over to him. Failing to kick the ball at all is NOT an infringement, it just means the PK hasn't been taken yet.

As I said, if you can show me a Law which says that not kicking the ball at all is an infringement, I'll recant.

If you check the on-line LoTG and watch the video attached to this Law, you will see what we have always known i.e. if a RL style tap is taken, a scrum is awarded.
The Law is very clear. It MUST be a clear kick and if the ball is on the ground, the ball MUST clearly leave the mark.

All very interesting and all completely irrelevant if the ball was never kicked.
 

Camquin

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If someone repeatedly took quick penalties without kicking, I might get to the point where I considered it an act contrary to good sportsmanship.
 

The Fat


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No, you see, you actually haven't



I have highlighted the salient part!

What infringement did TJP commit?

Did he kick the ball with the wrong type of kick? No
Did he kick the ball with his heel? No
Did he kick the ball with his knee? No
Did he kick the ball such that the ball didn't leave his hand? No

In fact, he did not kick the ball at all therefore he did not commit an infringement under the laws of the game. There is nothing to stop him picking up the ball and running in any direction he wishes. He can pass it to a team-mate to take the kick or run the ball over to him. Failing to kick the ball at all is NOT an infringement, it just means the PK hasn't been taken yet.

As I said, if you can show me a Law which says that not kicking the ball at all is an infringement, I'll recant.



All very interesting and all completely irrelevant if the ball was never kicked.

With all due respect Ian, I was going to ask you if you are being serious, but I think you are.

"There is nothing to stop him picking up the ball and running in any direction he wishes. He can pass it to a team-mate to take the kick or run the ball over to him. Failing to kick the ball at all is NOT an infringement, it just means the PK hasn't been taken yet."

And yet, apart from not kicking the ball, he did none of the above but he did run in-goal and ground the ball to claim a try even though as you say, he didn't actually take the PK. I really think you are drawing a very long bow in TJP's defence. Point is that he attempted to tap kick the ball and missed and therefore failed to make a clear kick and cause the ball to leave the mark. Are you saying that because Perenara f#$%ed it up he should get another go? This wasn't a case of taking the quick tap from the wrong position ( 21.2(c) ), it was a case of not taking the kick correctly ( 21.4(d) )
 

didds

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I havent; seen a scrum awarded for a mistaken tap kick for decades in any level of rugby.

didds
 

The Fat


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I havent; seen a scrum awarded for a mistaken tap kick for decades in any level of rugby.

didds

Check the on-line LoTG and look at the video attached to 21.4(d) didds, it does happen.
I have awarded a scrum on more than one occasion for an incorrectly taken quick tap. I have had instances at the pre-match brief with the captains where I have asked each captain not to approach me when I have awarded a PK to their opposition so that they can go quickly if they wish and vise-versa, at which point I have had one captain ask that I ensure the opposition take the quick tap properly. At that request I basically have to say to each captain to make sure the #9s make a clear kick and not just tap the ball on their foot. Sure as eggs, there will be a quick tap taken incorrectly (we do get Leaguies playing rugby here or we have players who just don't know the Laws). I usually let the first one go if it's taken really quickly, but have a word on the run to make sure the next one is taken correctly. Some #9s have short memories.
 

ChuckieB

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With all due respect Ian, I was going to ask you if you are being serious, but I think you are.

"There is nothing to stop him picking up the ball and running in any direction he wishes. He can pass it to a team-mate to take the kick or run the ball over to him. Failing to kick the ball at all is NOT an infringement, it just means the PK hasn't been taken yet."

And yet, apart from not kicking the ball, he did none of the above but he did run in-goal and ground the ball to claim a try even though as you say, he didn't actually take the PK. I really think you are drawing a very long bow in TJP's defence. Point is that he attempted to tap kick the ball and missed and therefore failed to make a clear kick and cause the ball to leave the mark. Are you saying that because Perenara f#$%ed it up he should get another go? This wasn't a case of taking the quick tap from the wrong position ( 21.2(c) ), it was a case of not taking the kick correctly ( 21.4(d) )

In my view playing devils
advocate to show such a thing is
not catered for in the laws. As such you can't say he's wrong.

We know it looks Wrong, tjp was playing a cheeky one, but impossible to back up.
 
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