TMO Guessing on Forward Passes

[TNT88]

Here's a good one from the Reds game. Quade throws the ball behind him and gets called for a forward pass. The only camera angle that suggests a forward pass is one on a pretty bad angle.

I know not everyone will agree, but IMO this is equivalent to throwing the ball over your own head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6-elCIsghc#t=64m25s

Anyone else reckon we should use the NRL's system where the refs make an on field judgement and the TMO can only over-rule it with firm evidence? I honestly believe the refs would have been in a better position than TV cameras to judge this one.

 

[Rassie]

Why did he refer it then? Where was the AR's as they are in the best position to call it.

I note you said bad angle? Do the TMO only get angles that the broadcaster provide for him?

If so then the broadcaster is in control of the TMO really

 

[4eyesbetter]

Anyone else reckon we should use the NRL's system where the refs make an on field judgement and the TMO can only over-rule it with firm evidence? I honestly believe the refs would have been in a better position than TV cameras to judge this one.

Nah, you should use the NRL's system where they say that the video referee can't rule on a forward pass

I could hear arguments either way and wouldn't go against whatever the benefit-of-the-doubt policy is if I were handed that, but I also think it looks like a forward pass.

 

[TNT88]

Why did he refer it then? Where was the AR's as they are in the best position to call it.

I note you said bad angle? Do the TMO only get angles that the broadcaster provide for him?

If so then the broadcaster is in control of the TMO really

If you want to talk about broadcasters start another thread please. I'm talking about forward passes here. He obviously refereed it because he wasn't highly confident, that doesn't mean some obscure camera angles are going to give us a higher level of confidence though. It's a gamble the ref makes and it would be easier if the TMO only over-ruled if they did have evidence to over-rule with good confidence.

 

[Rassie]

If you want to talk about broadcasters start another thread please. I'm talking about forward passes here. He obviously refereed it because he wasn't highly confident, that doesn't mean some obscure camera angles are going to give us a higher level of confidence though. It's a gamble the ref makes and it would be easier if the TMO only over-ruled if they did have evidence to over-rule with good confidence.

Actually broadcasters have to do with this.

First of all. They judge on the hands only. Nothing else
2nd of all the TMO told a mate of mine Brendon Nel he did not give it as it was not clear and obvious.
3rd it was not clear and obvious due to what? Bad angles?

Oh the Broadcaster owns 50 percent stake in the Cheetahs and Sharks franchises btw?

 

[TNT88]

Yeah start another thread on that thanks. I'm talking about Quade's pass, in which a forward pass was given even though there wasn't much suggesting that it was.

 

[damo]

Anyone else reckon we should use the NRL's system where the refs make an on field judgement and the TMO can only over-rule it with firm evidence? I honestly believe the refs would have been in a better position than TV cameras to judge this one.

I wonder if we should stop using the TMO at all for forward passes. It doesn't seem to be helping much.
That said;

I'm talking about Quade's pass, in which a forward pass was given even though there wasn't much suggesting that it was.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I thought that once you looked at the angle which was looking past the scrum, it looked like Quade's hand motion was to pass the ball forward. To me at least, I thought that was one of the times where it was the action of the player passing that made it forward and not the player's momentum. I could live with the TMO saying that there wasn't clear evidence, but for me there was enough.

I have a suspicion based on Joubert's speed to motion for the TMO and his body language and reactions that last year he would have just called a forward pass himself.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Why did he refer it then? Where was the AR's as they are in the best position to call it.

I note you said bad angle? Do the TMO only get angles that the broadcaster provide for him?

If so then the broadcaster is in control of the TMO really

I have told you how the TMO video system works in another thread, but I will explain it to you again for clarity.

The angles available to the TMO are only limited by the number of cameras at the ground.

The individual video streams from all the cameras (usually 10 or more) at the ground are recorded. They are linked together with video markers at precisely the same time code so that when the TMO asks for a particular section of play, the producer can go back to the exact required time-code in the video stream from any camera.

The only reason WE don't see all the angles (on our TV's) is because the TMO has stopped asking, usually because he has seen enough to make his decision.

Once and for all, THE PRODUCER DOES NOT LIMIT WHAT THE TMO CAN SEE. The VTO (video tape operator; a legacy term as it all digital streaming these days) supplies the video that the TMO wants to see

Now, stop trying to put this idea up as some sort of bias accusation against the broadcasters. If you continue with this line when it has been explained to you, then you are trolling!!

Here's a good one from the Reds game. Quade throws the ball behind him and gets called for a forward pass. The only camera angle that suggests a forward pass is one on a pretty bad angle.

I know not everyone will agree, but IMO this is equivalent to throwing the ball over your own head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6-elCIsghc#t=64m25s

Anyone else reckon we should use the NRL's system where the refs make an on field judgement and the TMO can only over-rule it with firm evidence? I honestly believe the refs would have been in a better position than TV cameras to judge this one.

FWIW, I thought the pass looked like it was thrown forward. The angle from ground level looking over the scrum is the best, clearest angle, and it shows that he clearly throws the ball forward with his "hindmost" hand.

 

[OB..]

Once and for all, THE PRODUCER DOES NOT LIMIT WHAT THE TMO CAN SEE. The VTO (video tape operator; a legacy term as it all digital streaming these days) supplies the video that the TMO wants to see

You are correct in theory, and most of the time in practice. I do remember being told of an occasion in France when the TMO was English, the technicians French, and they had trouble communicating.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

You are correct in theory, and most of the time in practice. I do remember being told of an occasion in France when the TMO was English, the technicians French, and they had trouble communicating.

Shall we start a poll asking "Should Foreign Lanaguage training be mandatory for TMOs?" :biggrin:

 

[dave_clark]

You are correct in theory, and most of the time in practice. I do remember being told of an occasion in France when the TMO was English, the technicians French, and they had trouble communicating.

i recall that too. quite a high profile game if memory serves correctly!

 

[Ian_Cook]

You are correct in theory, and most of the time in practice. I do remember being told of an occasion in France when the TMO was English, the technicians French, and they had trouble communicating.

OB

Your example is not intentional though. Rassie is implying that producers would deliberately withhold certain angles from the TMO so that he is unable to make decisions that might not be favourable to one side or the other. Quite simply, its untrue, and if it did happen SANZAR would come down on the broadcaster very hard.

A couple of seasons back, I managed to get an invite into the Outside Broadcast truck at Trafalgar Park for a Crusaders match, so I have seen the set-up in operation from the VTO's end of things. Basically, the TMO gets any camera stream he wants. The ONLY limitation is with the hand-held sideline "steadicam" cameras, the angle will depend on where the cameramen was at the time-code the TMO wants to see. If the cameraman is doing his job properly, he will be in the right place to get the best angle.

 

[damo]

Speaking of TMO's and forward passes, while we are here:

Bulls v Highlanders

Thoughts?

 

[crossref]

Speaking of TMO's and forward passes, while we are here:

Bulls v Highlanders

Thoughts?

the #10 throws it backwards relative to himself, good
but it travels forwards relative to the ground.

should be OK
but the TMO hasn't seen the IRB video on youtube (or did see it but didn't agree with it) so a forward pass is called.

 

[damo]

the #10 throws it backwards relative to himself, good
but it travels forwards relative to the ground.

should be OK
but the TMO hasn't seen the IRB video on youtube (or did see it but didn't agree with it) so a forward pass is called.

Oops, wrong one.

This is the one I meant

 

[Dixie]

Oops, wrong one.

This is the one I meant

Very tight call. Relative to the ground,t eh ball possibly went forward. The direction of the hands seemed to me to be clecarly backward. Good call by the TMO in my view to refuse to cancel the try on the basis of the earlier suspect pass.

 

[Ian_Cook]

the #10 throws it backwards relative to himself, good
but it travels forwards relative to the ground.

should be OK
but the TMO hasn't seen the IRB video on youtube (or did see it but didn't agree with it) so a forward pass is called.

If you are talking about Quade Cooper's pass, then I don't see how you can possibly see him as throwing it backwards. Take a look at the view from the right, looking across the scrum (beginning at 1:04:24); Cooper's hindmost hand is clearly and obviously throwing the ball forward.

 

[Browner]

FWIW, I thought the pass looked like it was thrown forward. The angle from ground level looking over the scrum is the best, clearest angle, and it shows that he clearly throws the ball forward with his "hindmost" hand.

I agree - Forward.
My main concern is now that the RL interpretation of 'Relative velocity/momentum' has filtered in & been accepted, and given that referees don't have the ability to calculate 'slide-rule' measurements instantaneously , then are we not heading towards constant TMO decision referrals....which slow the game down - undesirable ?

[ or do they add drama ? wwhhhhooooooaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Try - desirable?]

 

[crossref]

If you are talking about Quade Cooper's pass, then I don't see how you can possibly see him as throwing it backwards. Take a look at the view from the right, looking across the scrum (beginning at 1:04:24); Cooper's hindmost hand is clearly and obviously throwing the ball forward.

it went backward relevant to him.

 

[didds]

or even relative



didds