Try disallowed AFTER conversion attempt

[didds]

England v Italy women's 6N, 2/4/2023.

As play develops left to right, the pull back pass to W11, behind W2, sees W2 run into B23, who is blocked form approaching 11 as she moves forward and makes a break in the gap in mid field, ending in a try.

The try is awarded and england attempt an unsuccessful conversion.

The ref THEN calls to review the action and overturns the try.
The highlights reel linked to above doesn't show the conversioin attempt, or the extended chat AFTER the conversion and before the Italy restart, but they both definitely happened.

This would seem to rather disavow the notion that "a try cannot be overturned once the conversion is taken" which i have read several times here (or its been discussed anyway, and i can certainly recall but without specifics teams taking a very very quick DG conversion in order to "play" the To4 into being unable to review a try, with this in mind.

So - who is correct? the ref in Eng v Ita, or the wider rugby community (and if so is there a law refenece?).

Merely intrigued!
For those with BBC Iplayer access, its game time 26:40 in this watch again video. You can then see the entire move, hear BM666 suggest it was blocking, the conversion attempt, hear the commentator say "once they've taken it they cant come back" [ see my point above and the general thinking etc ] and then the subsequent review by the referee prior to an Italian restart.

Women's Six Nations Rugby - 2023: England v Italy

Live rugby union as England host Italy at Franklin’s Gardens, Northampton.

www.bbc.co.uk

didds

 

[Phil E]

There was one in the Quins game as well.
Try scored, kick taken.
Then the TMO called in a knock on, and the try was scratched off.

 

[BikingBud]

Was at the game and saw it live, was immediately clear and obvious from end on view so was surprised that the TMO didn't call it sooner.

But it does appear to be in line with provided direction, see following from TMO Protocol:

"Should the broadcaster provide an angle after a conversion takes place but before the restart has been taken, that clearly shows an infringement has taken place, then the TMO/referee should use the video referral process to deal with the infringement."​

​

Also includes direction on which offences can be reviewed only within 2 phases and those for which the limit is the previous restart.

"Law 9: Foul Play​

All Clear and Obvious acts of Foul Play (excluding Law 9.19, "Dangerous Play in a Scrum") may be referred up until the game restarts (for clarity purposes, this includes a lineout after a Penalty Kick, should footage only become available then) including but not limited to;​

• Obstruction (where material affect is determined, and in line with the guiding principle of Clear and Obvious)."

The ref stopped for TMO review @Game Clock 28:29 before the It KO, and went to review the video on the screen at the other end.

The decision did get a large negative (booing) response from the crowd but it was the right decision.

 

[didds]

OK - cheers all for the above.
So it is indeed a MYTH that you "cant go back" after the conversion attempt. [ one for the MYTH thread ]

BUT


once the restart has occurred that's it, the try stands.
I suppose had such a try been "scored" and the conversion taken as the end of the first half, the To4 may have ten minutes to maybe correct it rather than eg 1 minute ie the restart ?

 

[Volun-selected]

once the restart has occurred that's it, the try stands.

Kinda seems fair - rather than the kicker standing there waiting, just get the conversion out the way and take a minute before the restart. Either clear and obvious so scratch the points, or all clear and play on.

Now, I don’t have a TMO (heck, don’t even have ARs) but can I use the video off a spectator’s phone…?

 

[didds]

?? that wasn't the question though

"once the restart has occurred that's it, the try stands.
I suppose had such a try been "scored" and the conversion taken as the end of the first half, the To4 may have ten minutes to maybe correct it rather than eg 1 minute ie the restart ?"

 

[Volun-selected]

?? that wasn't the question though

"once the restart has occurred that's it, the try stands.
I suppose had such a try been "scored" and the conversion taken as the end of the first half, the To4 may have ten minutes to maybe correct it rather than eg 1 minute ie the restart ?"

The protocol has “Should the broadcaster provide an angle after a conversion takes place but before the restart has been taken, that clearly shows an infringement has taken place, then the TMO/referee should use the video referral process to
deal with the infringement.” Not sure the break would be used - if in the red and the TMO calls or is called, they review and make a determination before the half is ended.

 

[didds]

which would make sense and be equitable .

Ditto on full time I guess

 

[Stu10]

OK - cheers all for the above.
So it is indeed a MYTH that you "cant go back" after the conversion attempt. [ one for the MYTH thread ]

BUT


once the restart has occurred that's it, the try stands.
I suppose had such a try been "scored" and the conversion taken as the end of the first half, the To4 may have ten minutes to maybe correct it rather than eg 1 minute ie the restart ?

I believe this was the agreed process prior to the May 2022 update, therefore not a myth, rather an out of date protocol.

 

[didds]

I guess its a case of how long does it take quoting an out of date protocol to become a myth!

 

[BikingBud]

I guess its a case of how long does it take quoting an out of date protocol to become a myth!

Given that few will ever read the protocols themselves and they get their perception of the laws from pundits, the crowd has little to no chance of understanding what is going on.

When I queried the booing with the people sat next to us they said "you can't go back after the conversion"!

 

[Locke]

So at grassroots or any time there is no TMO, until what point can we reverse our call (for example, based on the report of an AR)?

 

[SimonSmith]

So at grassroots or any time there is no TMO, until what point can we reverse our call (for example, based on the report of an AR)?

An actual proper AR?
I check with mine before giving the try.

 

[Dickie E]

So at grassroots or any time there is no TMO, until what point can we reverse our call (for example, based on the report of an AR)?

I'd go no further back than the last stoppage eg if I awarded a scrum and AR reported that there'd been foul play at the last lineout I'd go back for the penalty even if there'd been several phases in between (assuming it was in better position than the scrum, etc).

If a conversion attempt had been made and the AR then trotted up and said there'd been a neck roll by the scoring team at the last breakdown, I'd be looking for a new AR.

 

[smeagol]

So at grassroots or any time there is no TMO, until what point can we reverse our call (for example, based on the report of an AR)?

As an AR, what I am told is that you think you saw something to disallow the try, stay on the sidelines and do not go towards the posts. Then, wait for the referee to ask you about what you saw.

 

[Drift]

OK - cheers all for the above.
So it is indeed a MYTH that you "cant go back" after the conversion attempt. [ one for the MYTH thread ]

BUT


once the restart has occurred that's it, the try stands.
I suppose had such a try been "scored" and the conversion taken as the end of the first half, the To4 may have ten minutes to maybe correct it rather than eg 1 minute ie the restart ?

No, it used to the a thing where once the conversion was taken that you can’t go back and check the try. They changed it in June last year.

 

[Dickie E]

Just to add a bit of street cred ... Drift is a super rugby TMO

 

[BikingBud]

@Dickie E
Does street cred make them any more or less able to read the protocol that I posted above, that enabled everyone to read and consider the full protocol and context, that will enable us to communicate better with (and educate) the people we deal with regularly and that is often seen as part of the routine problem of hidden message and memos that we miss out on?

• Television Match Official (TMO) Protocol Updated: May 2022 Operational: 1 July 2022

PS is a super rugby TMO different to a "Super Rugby TMO"

 

[Dickie E]

@Dickie E
Does street cred make them any more or less able to read the protocol that I posted above, that enabled everyone to read and consider the full protocol and context, that will enable us to communicate better with (and educate) the people we deal with regularly and that is often seen as part of the routine problem of hidden message and memos that we miss out on?

• Television Match Official (TMO) Protocol Updated: May 2022 Operational: 1 July 2022

no, but this is a guy who is working & dealing with the issues pragmatically at the coal face. If it's of no relevance to you, scroll on

 

[crossref]

No, it used to the a thing where once the conversion was taken that you can’t go back and check the try. They changed it in June last year.

Because, I think, teams were rushing take the kick to secure what they knew was a dodgy try