U13 yellow Card

KingsPE


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Some great responses to my original post - thanks to all.

Like my original post stated: a tricky one.

Would NEVER criticise any ref unless they are unsafe - certainly not the case here - was not my intention to sound as critical as it came across. He applied the law s he saw fit.

I have no doubt that he was doing what he thought was right. As a side, the YC made no difference whatsoever. Because of the disparity, I had already shaken up my team to have players out of position. The YC just gave my players the resolve to defend their hearts out and (on the next play following the YC) got a turnover from a knock on and counter attacked to score under the posts.

It was a league game but I honestly do not really care too much about results (yes, I know I am unique and proud of it). Funny thing is, the kids play best when they are enjoying themselves and have the freedom to take risks without fear of admonishment from their coach). THE OPPOSITION ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS MY LADS. - why would we want to beat them by 40 points? Nobody learns anything out of that.

Perhaps my only disappointment with the ref is that it was all about him and not the players?????? Maybe he's reading this and will learn from it.

End of monologue :)
 

Jabba


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I have yellow carded an U13 for a team offence.

4 or 5 PK's in defending 22 on the trot - for differing offences. Told the skipper that there were too many PK's in this area and they were cutting down my options in how I would deal with it. He did tell his team to keep their discipline and understood what I meant. Two mins later, still in defending 22, blindside break and there is a high tackle. Not overly malicious or clothes line etc but a definate PK. Skipper and offender over - told skipper he had been warned and YC to offender.

Game finished and coach of offending team was apologetic in regards the penalties and no issue with the YC. Player came over and apologised and I told him the high tackle on it's own wasn't a YC, but he took one for the team. Bar afterwards and no-one disputed anything. Game finished 25-18 to the 'offending' side.

In this situation, I felt I didn't have a choice but it is the only one I have given at this age group in 4 years. They do have to learn as has been pointed out, but it was a last resort and wasn't the same player offending.
 

Davet

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Reading the OP there is a strong feeling that the ref was balancing things up by requiring more from the dominant team. I haqve on occasion done this at adult matches, in a friendly game, after talking to dominant captain - "You guys are playing really well, and are at least as good as them at getting away from the tackle, and letting play go on - but why don't we take this opportunity for me to ref your boys as if they were at the next level up, more speed faster response etc? It might mean you give away a few more PKs, and allow them back in the game a bit - but are you up for the challenge?"

I don't think anything like that would be appropriate at junior rugby, and certainly not at U13. And if the captain was reluctant then I wouldn't force a bias on the game.

If this was being refereed without any "corrective bias" then certainly 7 Penalties in succession at the breadown near the goal-line is waaaaay too many - ref should have had a word after the second and YC after 3 - and I don't care if it's U13 or not.
 

Simon Thomas


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The topic of U16 and younger leagues has been hotly debated in Hampshire's Youth Forum and after 4 seasons they are likely to be stopped next season, reverting back to a Cup Competition at all age groups U16 to U13 plusf riendlies.

Some reasons raised were :

1. Win at all costs attitude of many, affecting player discipline
2. Limited game time for non first choice players
3. Mental and emotional presure on players (and coaches)
4. Growing spectator referee abuse (these are ELRA qualified club refs)
5. Pressure on Saturday school players to 'illegally' play on Sunday too
6. Too intense week in week out competitive rugby, reducing skills and coaching opportunties.
7. Increase in injuries and no recovery time
 

crossref


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The topic of U16 and younger leagues has been hotly debated in Hampshire's Youth Forum and after 4 seasons they are likely to be stopped next season, reverting back to a Cup Competition at all age groups U16 to U13 plusf riendlies.

Some reasons raised were :

1. Win at all costs attitude of many, affecting player discipline
2. Limited game time for non first choice players
3. Mental and emotional presure on players (and coaches)
4. Growing spectator referee abuse (these are ELRA qualified club refs)
5. Pressure on Saturday school players to 'illegally' play on Sunday too
6. Too intense week in week out competitive rugby, reducing skills and coaching opportunties.
7. Increase in injuries and no recovery time


1- are leagues really that different from friendlies and cup games
2- yes, do need to balance league games (best XV) with friendlies (lots of rotation)
3-
4- are leagues really that different from friendlies and cup games.
5- I do think we should play leageus after christmas, avoiding the clash with the one-term schools at least
6- is stretching it - the largest league in Hants is 8 teams (many smaller) so that's only seven league games in a 30 week season.
7- this is to do with the maximum numbe rof games played, not the nature of the game. We could look at having a season limit of 20 games (or 15 or whatever). I am not sure league games have more injuries than friendles and cup games.

One might argue that all-or-nothing cup games are more risky, pressured and OTT than leagues where the odd loss or draw doesn't mean you are out.

If you stop leagues in Hants I wonder if we will see Hants teams joining the HML, Surrey or Sussex leagues?
 

Simon Thomas


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I am only passing on the comments as discussed at their meeting. It is up to the YouthForum and their Committee to make their decision based on the issues they have raised in their juristiction.

On point 6, 8 teams = 14 fixtures (home & away).
On point 7, Cup losers go into Bowl at first round and Plate after second round.

If the decision is made the Hants CB Management and Governance Committees are unlikely to allow their affiliated Hants clubs U16 to U13 teans join external county leagues.
 

dave_clark


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they're not home and away in essex either - looks like it could be some sort of policy across the board.
 

Dickie E


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Reading the OP there is a strong feeling that the ref was balancing things up by requiring more from the dominant team. I haqve on occasion done this at adult matches, in a friendly game, after talking to dominant captain - "You guys are playing really well, and are at least as good as them at getting away from the tackle, and letting play go on - but why don't we take this opportunity for me to ref your boys as if they were at the next level up, more speed faster response etc? It might mean you give away a few more PKs, and allow them back in the game a bit - but are you up for the challenge?"

I don't think anything like that would be appropriate at junior rugby, and certainly not at U13. And if the captain was reluctant then I wouldn't force a bias on the game.

I'll admit that I will apply a "should know better" burden. An experienced player who is offside will more likely draw a PK than a player who is clearly a newbie. I won't ignore the latter but will take on a more coaching role. In other words, my materiality margin may vary.
 

crossref


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that's different from applying a 'your team is winning' bias
 

davidgh


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Hi Simon

I'm not surprised they are thinking of getting rid of a 14 match league, it sounds very intense and leaves little room for friendlies and fun.

Surrey is only 7 matches and if we wanted to do 14 fixtures (which some might) would definitely go for a pre-christmas and post christmas league. The post Christmas league being very different due to the involvement of day school 1st XV players.
 

TigerCraig


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Interesting.

I know our sporting psyches are very different, but if we didn't run fully competitive leagues with 14 home & away games and end of year playoffs from Under 10 up we would have zero players.

Even starting as late as Under 10 gets unbelieving stares from our RL and soccer brethren.
 

Davet

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But do they play at school as well?

The issue is often not the lack of competitive spirit - I have yet to meet a 10 year old rugby player who was not competitive. It is more to do with the number of competitive games of rugby per week and cumulative over season that young physiques can stand.

Many youngsters over here play at school, and are members of a club as well. Some schools are very (and I mean VERY) insistent that they come first.

Mainly these are elite schools with a strong rugby tradition.

"Money doesn't talk, it swears!" Bob Dylan.
 

crossref


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Many youngsters over here play at school, and are members of a club as well. Some schools are very (and I mean VERY) insistent that they come first.

Mainly these are elite schools with a strong rugby tradition.

"Money doesn't talk, it swears!" Bob Dylan.

the RFU regulations actually specify that schools come first.
this applies to all schools, not just private ones!

[LAWS]1.5 Every effort must be taken to ensure that talented players are not overplayed and
these players should give priority to school rather than club activities and to CB
fixtures rather than School/Club.[/LAWS]

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/~/media/...gulations/RFU Regulation 15 - Guidelines.ashx
 

Mike Selig


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Joining late, and not much to add on general debate except that if I'd found myself in a position where I didn't feel I had any other option than YC'ing a 12 year-old for team offending I'd be asking severe questions of my own management.

However crossref asks (and others have raised the issues of competitive vs non-competitive):
"are leagues really that different from friendlies and cup games?"

The answer is a resounding YES at least to the kids. I base myself on a survey taken of some fairly large number (323 at least as 323 was the largest option given) u11 (so younger accepted) footballers who were asked what their top 7 priorities during a football season. They were given a list of 15 options to choose from. The top priority (with 323) was "to be with my mates". A significant number, although nowhere near totality (about 207 but this could be shaky memory) was "to win games". but only 7 (that's right, 7 out of 323 at least) had as one of their 7 priorities "winning trophies". It's an interesting thing.

Sure, different sport, and different age level. And you could argue that part of a coach's job is to teach players to want to win leagues as well as matches. But to put all the emphasis on achieving high league positions at a young age is clearly at odds with what the kids themselves want out of the game. I don't think that's a good thing.
 

dave_clark


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do you mean the answer is a resounding NO, rather than YES? or have i missed something?
 

Davet

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Crossref - and why do you think that is?

Could it be that the rule makers at the RFU are mostly "old boys" doing their bit for the alma mater.

You see if I made the rules - it would be the other way round.

Schools - certainly normal schools as opposed to expensive fee paying centres of privilege - play many sports, and generally are master of none. Rugby clubs play rugby. And that should be where the future of the sport lies.
 

crossref


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Crossref - and why do you think that is?

Could it be that the rule makers at the RFU are mostly "old boys" doing their bit for the alma mater.

You see if I made the rules - it would be the other way round.

Schools - certainly normal schools as opposed to expensive fee paying centres of privilege - play many sports, and generally are master of none. Rugby clubs play rugby. And that should be where the future of the sport lies.

aside: almost all the boys at my club play rugby for state schools. What you presumably call 'normal' schools, and we get the same school/club problems. The schools win partly because of the RFU rules, but more because they play on saturday and we play on sunday.

RFU - -the reasoning I have heard is that schools need some protection becasue they must find their squad from the very small pool of boys availaible to them at the school A school rugby coach can't have a recruitment drive asking every boy to bring a mate to training, to try and find three more forwards, like a club coach can. A club coach's pool of players is anyone within travelling distance.
 

spikeno10

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Just out of interest I got a report from our CB today looking to introduce leagues into our area from U13 upwards.

IMHO this will kill the game stone dead here. Apologies as this probably isn't the forum for this debate.
 
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