U13 yellow Card
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but why spike?
our kids play in Herts-Middx Leagues http://hertsmiddxleagues.co.uk/
- just seven out of the twenty-four fixtures we have this season are league
- the formality and competition league adds an extra excitement and bite to those few games
- our kids enjoy league matches and were relly chuffed the year they got promoted
- leagues actually lead to better friendlies as well - I can arrange friendlies against unknown clubs in Surrey, Sussex, Hants and Berks by looking at the league tables to see how good they are and arranging suitable, competitve games for our A and B alike, really reducing the number of 55-0 whitewashes that are no fun for losing kids, and no benefit to the winners.
Don't get me wrong, I'd hate for ALL our game to be league games, but the current system where a third them are works really well, I think, and the boys get a lot from the leagues (just as they get equally as much from the friendlies)
the league is very popular with clubs as far away as bedford joining, and I believe the HML have had to close the league to new entrants outside Herts and Middx as the area was getting too large, and there's a waiting list of teams in HM wanting to enter
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TigerCraig
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There are a few different groups:
1) those who go to state schools who will generally play some form of inter school sport on Fridays, rugby league or soccer on Saturdays and then club rugby on Sunday (all competitive leagues)
2) those who go to private schools who will play rugby on both Saturday (school) and Sunday (club) and some form of mid week sport as well
When the representative season comes along those kids will generally have a school game (or rugby league) on Saturday, a club rugby game on Sunday morning, then a representative rugby game on Sunday afternoon
As the boys get older (Under 16), rugby league moves to Sundays so we will often have boys running from league to union games (or vice versa) on the same day - in some cases more than half the team.
didds
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whilst I general agree with Davet on this, TC's post highlights something else that is possible... whilst we protect (?) lads from playing rugby for school AND club in a w/e in theory, what happens when thats ame lad is swimming Friday evening for his SC, football saturday for this AFC, the going for a bike ride with his dad and mates sat pm before playing rugby Sunday morning for his RFC club before kncokcing out a couple of games of squash on a sunday evening?
didds
didds
combining rugby union and rugby league is IMO a problem.
down here in the south RL is a summer sport, so it means kids playing endless rugby, winter, spring, summer, autumn year after year after year.. rugby..
- Some of our u15s have now been playing rugby every week since the RU U12 season started in sept 2008.. that's nearly four years of rugby without a single week off, other than christmas.
- and from Feb to April, and then from Aug to Oct the seasons/pre-seasons overlap so they are training/playing both at same time (as well as school for some)
I just don't see how long they are going to last without an off-season break, before just giving up rugby altogether..
And do we do anythnig to discourage it? On the contrary we fall over ourselves to rent our pitches to RL clubs to make a little money...
down here in the south RL is a summer sport, so it means kids playing endless rugby, winter, spring, summer, autumn year after year after year.. rugby..
- Some of our u15s have now been playing rugby every week since the RU U12 season started in sept 2008.. that's nearly four years of rugby without a single week off, other than christmas.
- and from Feb to April, and then from Aug to Oct the seasons/pre-seasons overlap so they are training/playing both at same time (as well as school for some)
I just don't see how long they are going to last without an off-season break, before just giving up rugby altogether..
And do we do anythnig to discourage it? On the contrary we fall over ourselves to rent our pitches to RL clubs to make a little money...
I agree with the notion of rugby burnout; too much of a good thing and all that...
But we may be a little overprotective of kids physical development just when they of an age to take all the CV exercise (though not heavy hits and frame changing work) that can be thrown at them...
I would be interested in the medical stats for exercise requirements in the 12 to 16 year age bands.
But we may be a little overprotective of kids physical development just when they of an age to take all the CV exercise (though not heavy hits and frame changing work) that can be thrown at them...
I would be interested in the medical stats for exercise requirements in the 12 to 16 year age bands.
spikeno10
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Whatever do you mean Didds??? :biggrin:
As for killing rugby here I probably need to explain. In the county we have 20 teams of which 15 run youth sections - some are huge, some not.
There are clubs who "collect" players in order to build a team to win (at all costs), this in turn leads to a number of players being sidelined at those clubs as the next great thing takes there shirt.
There is also a perceiption that representative squads are picked from certain teams already.
These elements together with a league structure which IMO only encourages a win at all costs mentality will see players migrate to 1 of 3 or 4 clubs who will select and discard them accordingly and we will very quickly get left with those very few clubs all playing each other and the rest of the clubs not able to field teams.
I can understand how this might work where there is a greater density of clubs and much larger numbers involved but can't see how it will work here and if I'm honest can't see any value to it. For competition there is a CB cup tournament at the minute (which works - sort of).
As for killing rugby here I probably need to explain. In the county we have 20 teams of which 15 run youth sections - some are huge, some not.
There are clubs who "collect" players in order to build a team to win (at all costs), this in turn leads to a number of players being sidelined at those clubs as the next great thing takes there shirt.
There is also a perceiption that representative squads are picked from certain teams already.
These elements together with a league structure which IMO only encourages a win at all costs mentality will see players migrate to 1 of 3 or 4 clubs who will select and discard them accordingly and we will very quickly get left with those very few clubs all playing each other and the rest of the clubs not able to field teams.
I can understand how this might work where there is a greater density of clubs and much larger numbers involved but can't see how it will work here and if I'm honest can't see any value to it. For competition there is a CB cup tournament at the minute (which works - sort of).
dave_clark
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when there are 20+ miles between clubs it might not be so simple to switch clubs, especially when relying on dad's taxi services which has to be split between 3 equally demanding kids...
when i was coaching, it was hard enough to get all the kids to training despite living in the same town. if you added a 20 mile round trip (approx distance to Brentwood, next nearest club with a full youth section), it would have been nigh on impossible.
perhaps more likely, these kids would merely give up and start sniffing glue and mugging old people (or whatever the youth of today get up to). which would be no good for the future of our sport.
when i was coaching, it was hard enough to get all the kids to training despite living in the same town. if you added a 20 mile round trip (approx distance to Brentwood, next nearest club with a full youth section), it would have been nigh on impossible.
perhaps more likely, these kids would merely give up and start sniffing glue and mugging old people (or whatever the youth of today get up to). which would be no good for the future of our sport.
it sounds like your CB (no leagues) is worse than our CB (with leagues).
you should try leagues!
Yes in HML there are one or two clubs who are very strong who field A teams with loads of massive county players. They play eachother in Div 1 and (so far as i can see, looking at their fixtures) precious few friendlies. No doubt their boys are too busy lifting weights with the CB and playing for top schools. Good luck to them.
Further down in the weeds, in Div 5 , Div 6 are plenty of small clubs, along with the B teams of middle-size clubs, who have an excellent time playing evenly matched competitive games against teams with similar ethos and ability.
For friendly games we look no further than teams in Surrey 4 and 5, and Hants and Sussex 3 with similar numbers, ethos and ability. Our boy have great fun, and so do the coaches. After games they all enjoy a burger in the clubhouse and a beer for the coaches and - beleive me - promotion from Div 6 to Div 5 gets just as big a slap on the back as winning Div 1.
Simon Thomas wrote
1. The topic of U16 and younger leagues has been hotly debated in Hampshire's Youth Forum and after 4 seasons they are likely to be stopped next season, reverting back to a Cup Competition at all age groups U16 to U13 plus friendlies.
Some reasons raised were:
1. Win at all costs attitude of many, affecting player discipline
2. Limited game time for non first choice players
3. Mental and emotional presure on players (and coaches)
4. Growing spectator referee abuse (these are ELRA qualified club refs)
5. Pressure on Saturday school players to 'illegally' play on Sunday too
6. Too intense week in week out competitive rugby, reducing skills and coaching opportunties.
7. Increase in injuries and no recovery time
My observations are based upon my time as Head Coach (and Society Referee HRURS) from 2004 – 2008.
1. Our under 13’s reached the semi final of cup losing to the eventual winners. We played 3 games including semi final compared with 8 leagues games the following season.
2. IMO Cup games are as intense as league but coach and players are not constantly looking at the point’s situation and threat of being relegated. In our first league season at under 14’s (2005-6). I can remember having to travel 100 miles to referee so that we fulfilled our referee commitment (otherwise we would be deducted 3 points) whilst my team traveled north of county. I distinctly remember my son telephoning to say they had won 10 – 7 and the opposition and coaches were in tears because they had been relegated!
3. A positive from leagues was regular rugby for children from Jersey and Guernsey. Prior to leagues they played 3 – 4 games a season because many clubs were unable to afford the £2,000 cost of traveling to Channel Islands if they were drawn away. Jersey RFC (and parents) agreed to pay £80 per game for their son to travel to each game which were all played away. I do not know how the Channel Island clubs will be accommodated going forward?
4. I often go to watch my 9 year old godson play in the mini rugby pilot, Hampshire are participating in. When my son was same age our membership was about 250, now it is 450+ and every home weekend is as just like a festival rather than a triangular fixture.
5. I seem to recall that RFU lost funding because participation levels had fallen? I have talked to the Hampshire RDO’s and mini rugby is not the issue it is when they move into 15 a side rugby. I can only talk about our club but we only have resources to run one squad per age group. Whilst under 13’s will start with 45 players I believe that playing league rugby results in coaches concentrating on winning these games and not developing the skill levels of all the squad, especially new Emerging players.
6. I agree with many contributors on RugbyRefs that the ruling that a player cannot play two games in 24 hours just means that children will go and play another sport e.g. Football. Please give more credit to parents who will stop players playing 2 games a weekend if they are injured. At 16 I played for Grammar School 1st XV and in the afternoon the Youth XV (both at Hooker). The following day I played Sunday league football.
There is clearly a need to keep players involved in rugby with all the effort going into increasing participation and inclusion in this great game.
My view for what its worth is use cup competition and friendlies (3 x 20) for under 13 & 14’s and then leagues at under 15 upwards.
1. The topic of U16 and younger leagues has been hotly debated in Hampshire's Youth Forum and after 4 seasons they are likely to be stopped next season, reverting back to a Cup Competition at all age groups U16 to U13 plus friendlies.
Some reasons raised were:
1. Win at all costs attitude of many, affecting player discipline
2. Limited game time for non first choice players
3. Mental and emotional presure on players (and coaches)
4. Growing spectator referee abuse (these are ELRA qualified club refs)
5. Pressure on Saturday school players to 'illegally' play on Sunday too
6. Too intense week in week out competitive rugby, reducing skills and coaching opportunties.
7. Increase in injuries and no recovery time
My observations are based upon my time as Head Coach (and Society Referee HRURS) from 2004 – 2008.
1. Our under 13’s reached the semi final of cup losing to the eventual winners. We played 3 games including semi final compared with 8 leagues games the following season.
2. IMO Cup games are as intense as league but coach and players are not constantly looking at the point’s situation and threat of being relegated. In our first league season at under 14’s (2005-6). I can remember having to travel 100 miles to referee so that we fulfilled our referee commitment (otherwise we would be deducted 3 points) whilst my team traveled north of county. I distinctly remember my son telephoning to say they had won 10 – 7 and the opposition and coaches were in tears because they had been relegated!
3. A positive from leagues was regular rugby for children from Jersey and Guernsey. Prior to leagues they played 3 – 4 games a season because many clubs were unable to afford the £2,000 cost of traveling to Channel Islands if they were drawn away. Jersey RFC (and parents) agreed to pay £80 per game for their son to travel to each game which were all played away. I do not know how the Channel Island clubs will be accommodated going forward?
4. I often go to watch my 9 year old godson play in the mini rugby pilot, Hampshire are participating in. When my son was same age our membership was about 250, now it is 450+ and every home weekend is as just like a festival rather than a triangular fixture.
5. I seem to recall that RFU lost funding because participation levels had fallen? I have talked to the Hampshire RDO’s and mini rugby is not the issue it is when they move into 15 a side rugby. I can only talk about our club but we only have resources to run one squad per age group. Whilst under 13’s will start with 45 players I believe that playing league rugby results in coaches concentrating on winning these games and not developing the skill levels of all the squad, especially new Emerging players.
6. I agree with many contributors on RugbyRefs that the ruling that a player cannot play two games in 24 hours just means that children will go and play another sport e.g. Football. Please give more credit to parents who will stop players playing 2 games a weekend if they are injured. At 16 I played for Grammar School 1st XV and in the afternoon the Youth XV (both at Hooker). The following day I played Sunday league football.
There is clearly a need to keep players involved in rugby with all the effort going into increasing participation and inclusion in this great game.
My view for what its worth is use cup competition and friendlies (3 x 20) for under 13 & 14’s and then leagues at under 15 upwards.
Mike Selig
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I think you've missed something (no offence meant, and none meant to Davet for stating that either): the point I am making is the kids (in general) want to win games, but (in near totality) don't care about winning leagues. So for them, a league match has an added issue at stake which they don't actually find important but which is imposed on them (usually by adults) as being so. There is a conflict between the kid's natural objectives (have fun, be with my mates, win the game on the day but hey not the end of the world if we don't)
and the exterior objectives we as a system are imposing on them (win league).
Bottom-line: most kids at a young age would rather play friendlies (where less is at stake) than league matches. Why do we think it's ok to impose our vision on them?
I think that's a GREAT point, what would most kids like ?
We should ask them ,properly I mean, in a survey. And at different ages, conceivably 13, 15, 17, 19 year old would give different answers
Choice should be between
.. league only, like adults
.. Mostly league, few friendlies
.. Mostly friendlies, small league as well
.. Mostly friendlies, also a cup
.. All friendlies
It would be very interesting research, and more valuable than asking a CB committee , I think
We should ask them ,properly I mean, in a survey. And at different ages, conceivably 13, 15, 17, 19 year old would give different answers
Choice should be between
.. league only, like adults
.. Mostly league, few friendlies
.. Mostly friendlies, small league as well
.. Mostly friendlies, also a cup
.. All friendlies
It would be very interesting research, and more valuable than asking a CB committee , I think
TigerCraig
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Again interesting.
Wouldn't work here as we have no tradition in any sport at any level of cups or friendlies. All kids talk about is "making the semis" of the league. Again, we also don't have a tradition of promotion/relegation so there is no pressure added from that.
My experience of leagues is that relegation is no pressure at all - on the contrary it's welcome: a team that struggles in Division 3 is more than happy to be relegated to Division 4 and play some different teams next season and win some games.
No one likes to be out of their league. Hence the expression - 'out of your league'
Back in U13s one team who started in Div 1 found themselves so out of their depth that at the end of the season they asked to be relegated to Div3 , which was granted. They had a much better time the following season.
It seems to me that some of you who are anti-leagues because of the supposed focus on winning/losing are actually guilty of thinking about leagues solely in terms of winning/losing. Another side of it is a sorting, enabling your team to find it's level and play some really competitive, either-side could win games, rather than enduring a 50-0 friendlies 'because we ALWAYS play them every year, it's a friendly'
No one likes to be out of their league. Hence the expression - 'out of your league'
Back in U13s one team who started in Div 1 found themselves so out of their depth that at the end of the season they asked to be relegated to Div3 , which was granted. They had a much better time the following season.
It seems to me that some of you who are anti-leagues because of the supposed focus on winning/losing are actually guilty of thinking about leagues solely in terms of winning/losing. Another side of it is a sorting, enabling your team to find it's level and play some really competitive, either-side could win games, rather than enduring a 50-0 friendlies 'because we ALWAYS play them every year, it's a friendly'
Dickie E
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Yes winning the "Granny" (aka the Grand Final) is what it is all about.
didds
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my direct knowledge/experience of this - fortunately limited - is that thiose that move to a "bigger" club then later become sidelined rarely return to a "lower" club... they just stop playing altogether.
Other's MMV of course.
didds
didds
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Who makes THOSE decisions... the players? or the adults?
same arguments all around I suspect...
didds
The point is about most kids.
The kids who are being selected every week and playing for the winning sides want to "make the semis".
Those who don't "make the semis", perhaps because even though they're pretty talented, 3 of the backs haven't had their growth spurts yet and so simply can't catch the longer legged opposition, don't feel very good about turning up for mid week training sessions in the dark and cold and cold Sundays where they're just going to lose again.
Those kids stop playing rugby.. They discover more interesting things to do on a cold Sunday morning like playing FIFA 2012 on the xbox networked into half a dozen mates from school. Or they discover the delights of a "walk" in the countryside with the class hottie..
Either way, they're no longer available to play next week and before long, there just aren't enough players in that club, in that age group to field a team.
Which means the colt's competition in x year's time is a bit of a damp squib as only about 4 of the teams in the entire region have a colts team.. And the senior section of the club no longer puts out 5 teams on a Saturday, but is lucky to field 2 (and the 2nds don't compete in the RFU leagues as they can't always field a front row as Dave from the butchers has to work every other Saturday..)
Lots of competition and lots of silverware on offer is great. For the winners.
Darwinian selection at work?
Is that why SA NZ AU are - generally - stronger at the top level?
Which begs the question, why do we want kids to play rugby - for their enjoyment or for our eventual greater glory?
Or is that a false dichotomy?
Could it be related to the commercial desire to grow the game, increasing youth and grass root participant numbers to drive up interest and develop future consumers of professional rugby?
There's a sports degree dissertation in there somewhere.
Is that why SA NZ AU are - generally - stronger at the top level?
Which begs the question, why do we want kids to play rugby - for their enjoyment or for our eventual greater glory?
Or is that a false dichotomy?
Could it be related to the commercial desire to grow the game, increasing youth and grass root participant numbers to drive up interest and develop future consumers of professional rugby?
There's a sports degree dissertation in there somewhere.
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