uncontested maul restart

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,225
Post Likes
2,219
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Blue win lineout and form up players in conventional maul formation. Red decline to participate in maul. Blue move forward. What is the outcome of this event? Law or clarification reference please
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,164
Post Likes
1,846
as long as the ball is at the front blue can move forward with impunity.

this is where somebody starts claiming a flaying wedge. Well, if Blue are at barely above walking pace play on.

red can of course TACKLE the ball carrier.

We will now have a 5,932 post thread about whether a flying wedge is occuring, whether its only a FW if < 5m from the try line, and will have several side threads about the colour of contact lenses, the flavour of cardboard, and whther a numbered shirt can be worn inside out because of kit colour clashes but thus not displaying the number.

Havent; we been here before several dozen times?

didds

didds
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,225
Post Likes
2,219
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
as long as the ball is at the front blue can move forward with impunity.

this is where somebody starts claiming a flaying wedge. Well, if Blue are at barely above walking pace play on.

red can of course TACKLE the ball carrier.

We will now have a 5,932 post thread about whether a flying wedge is occuring, whether its only a FW if < 5m from the try line, and will have several side threads about the colour of contact lenses, the flavour of cardboard, and whther a numbered shirt can be worn inside out because of kit colour clashes but thus not displaying the number.

Havent; we been here before several dozen times?

didds

didds

yeah, forget flying wedge.

Blue move ball to back of "maul"? What then?
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
The first defending player to then contact the front of the formation would cause me to blow for offensive offside.

I wouldn't consider this situation to be accidental on the part of the attacking side. They are contriving a situation as regards second guessing the defending side being prepared to contest the situation.

It's a tactic I am sure we all have our own opinion on.

You should play the situation in front you.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,161
Our guidance is ..
If they keep the ball at the front, play on
If they move ball to back, they must not move forward (Sanction : scrum for accidental offside)
I am not sure this guidance is supported by any Law or Clarification, but it's very well understood in London.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,164
Post Likes
1,846
Blue move ball to back of "maul"? What then?

defender bumps the front of the "maul" and wins a scrum for accidental obstruction (this "penalty" based on what Ive read and seen. Personally Ive no issue with it being a PK).

IN reality from what I see ref immediately calls use it - and means it to be "immediately".

Otherwise presumably defender can run around the back and tackle the BC tail gunner.

We had a thread not so long ago about the "maul" being set up, ball at the front where the attackers didn't move and the defenders hung off and stalemate ensued.

didds
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,164
Post Likes
1,846
Our guidance is ..

If they move ball to back, they must not move forward (Sanction : scrum for accidental offside)

would you permit a defender top run around the back to tackle the BC if they do not move forward CR?

didds
 

Christy


Referees in Ireland
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
527
Post Likes
60
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
would you permit a defender top run around the back to tackle the BC if they do not move forward CR?

didds

hi all .
in answer to didds question above ,,for me the answer is yes , i would allow a defender to run around back & tackle ball carrier .

again for me .
ball at front & advancing forward = play on {{ for me this would not be a flying wedge penalty situation , never seen it penalized for same either }
ball at back & stationery = i would be saying use it ,, if they pass ball away i would play on ..
ball at back & advancing forward = i would penalise same ,
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,161
would you permit a defender top run around the back to tackle the BC if they do not move forward CR?

didds

No, because the lineout isn't over, so they can't leave the lineout .

Call use it because until they use it all 30 players are stuck ..
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,136
Post Likes
2,409
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Blue win lineout and form up players in conventional maul formation. Red decline to participate in maul. Blue move forward. What is the outcome of this event? Law or clarification reference please

As stated RFU guidance is that if the ball is at the back and the opposition don't bind on to form a maul, then we shout "Use it". If they start to move forward without using it, Scrum for accidental offside.

The opposition cannot come round and tackle the ball carrier at the back because the ball hasn't left the lineout, so the would be tackler is offside.

I have seen different interpretations outside of RFU land.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,824
Post Likes
3,161
I wish we had RFU Game Management Guidelines that documented this sort of stuff each season

(Yes I know an email once went out)
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
No, because the lineout isn't over, so they can't leave the lineout .

Call use it because until they use it all 30 players are stuck ..

IMO handing the ball back in the event of a non maul should effectively bring the LO to an end. But if the RFU guidance is there.....

A smart player will look to ensure he draws an infringement.
 
Last edited:

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
IMO handing the ball back in the event of a non maul should effectively bring the LO to an end.

I agree with this - and I think there was a thread on it a couple of years ago. Ball transferred without a maul being formed = lineout over.

I don't recall the guidelines referring to players coming round - just that it should only be an accidental offside if they make contact with the defending team and if they don't use it immediately it's a turn over.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,136
Post Likes
2,409
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
IMO handing the ball back in the event of a non maul should effectively bring the LO to an end. But if the RFU guidance is there.....

A smart player will look to ensure he draws an infringement.

If the opposition all dropped back you would penalise them for leaving the line out early; so by the same token they can't move forward across the line of touch.

[LAWS]36. The lineout ends when:
a. The ball or a player in possession of the ball:
i. leaves the lineout; or
ii. enters the area between the touchline and the five-metre line; or
iii. goes beyond the 15-metre line.
b. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul
move beyond the mark of touch.
c. The ball becomes unplayable.[/LAWS]
 

Thunderhorse1986


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
226
Post Likes
0
If the opposition all dropped back you would penalise them for leaving the line out early; so by the same token they can't move forward across the line of touch.

[LAWS]36. The lineout ends when:
a. The ball or a player in possession of the ball:
i. leaves the lineout; or
ii. enters the area between the touchline and the five-metre line; or
iii. goes beyond the 15-metre line.
b. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul
move beyond the mark of touch.
c. The ball becomes unplayable.[/LAWS]

If the ball is moved to the back player in the "quasi-maul" then hasn't it left the lineout? It has certainly moved away from the LOT, probably by more than 1m, so the lineout is over. It can't be option b because there is no maul?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,164
Post Likes
1,846
wrt leaving the lineout, AIUI as long as the "maul" hasn;t left the LOT then the ball hasn't.

Admittedly this is my understanding with REAL mauls :)

didds
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
If the opposition all dropped back you would penalise them for leaving the line out early; so by the same token they can't move forward across the line of touch.

[LAWS]36. The lineout ends when:
a. The ball or a player in possession of the ball:
i. leaves the lineout; or
ii. enters the area between the touchline and the five-metre line; or
iii. goes beyond the 15-metre line.
b. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul
move beyond the mark of touch.
c. The ball becomes unplayable.[/LAWS]

I hadn't actually noticed the new wording, but before the re-write the lineout was over when the catcher passed the ball to a team mate (I guess this is covered under "leaves the lineout"). I'm sure I remember a discussion when it was decided that transferring the ball to a team mate should fall under "passing"
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
In fact, in the new lawbook, has the lineout ended when the ball has gone to the receiver? The receiver is a participant in the lineout so surely the ball hasn't left the lineout until it's left his hands.

N.B. I'm not saying this is what's intended, or how the game should be refereed.
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
If the opposition all dropped back you would penalise them for leaving the line out early; so by the same token they can't move forward across the line of touch.

[LAWS]36. The lineout ends when:
a. The ball or a player in possession of the ball:
i. leaves the lineout; or
ii. enters the area between the touchline and the five-metre line; or
iii. goes beyond the 15-metre line.
b. A ruck or maul forms and all of the feet of all of the players in the ruck or maul
move beyond the mark of touch.
c. The ball becomes unplayable.[/LAWS]

Law 31.

  • Until the ball is thrown in, and has touched the player or the ground, the offside line for lineout players is the mark of touch. After that, their offside line is a line through the ball.
in the absence of a maul or ruck, which is specially catered for, a defending line out player can advance towards the ball carrier at the back of the formation and if he can't get at him it surely draws the infringement if it has not done so already with the AO.

RFU guidance suggests it AO. I am more inclined to suggest that the spirit of the laws demand that the attacking side do not try and contrive a maul situation. It would potentially keep them on their toes as regards what some see as the tedious predictability of the catch and drive scenario. If you're not sure that the opposition are going to play your game then perhaps you need to think more creatively.

That will require you to be dynamic and require you to play the situation in front of you at any given point.
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
The opposition cannot come round and tackle the ball carrier at the back because the ball hasn't left the lineout, so the would be tackler is offside.

2018 Laws:

Law 18, Offside at a lineout

31. Until the ball is thrown in, and has touched the player or the ground, the offside line for lineout players is the mark of touch. After that, their offside line is a line through the ball.

2917 Laws:

[LAWS]Law 19.14 Offside when taking part in the lineout

(c) After the ball has touched a player or the ground. A player not carrying the ball is offside if , after the ball has touched a player or the ground , that player steps in front of the ball ,
unless tackling (or trying to tackle) an opponent. Any attempt to tackle must start from that player’s side of the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line
[/LAWS]

Whether the would be tackler of the tail-gunner is off-side depends on how you interpret the parts in red.
 
Top