Uncontested scrums

Marc Wakeham


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Interesting comment from our head of referees last night.
Uncontested scrums are 8V8. This is irrespective of hoew mant you start in the scrum with or had in the scrum before they went uncontested.

So, even if we have this scenario:

Side has used all replacements and flanker goes off injured (14 V 15 and scrum 7 v 8 ) Now lets sayTHP is binned Side is dow to 13 V 15 BUT the scrums must be 8 V 8 (and the backs 5 v 7!!).

I don't like it but that is our directive in Wales.
 

crossref


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That's not the direction we received .. which was, in these sorts of unusual circumstances that happen in the community game, .. to use some common sense and normally this would mean keeping the same numbers as were in place just before you went uncontested. So in this example stay at 7
 

didds

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we've been here before I thought, and came up with as CR says.

If not down amongst the dead men you could have 12 v 12 just to get a game going with 6v6 scrums (say) - and end up through injury 8v8 packs, plus scrumhalf and two others on one side, three on the other.

Whoever is expousing this bollocks needs to think about the game as a whole and its realities, and not just the elite end example.

didds
 

crossref


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I agree, but we are stuck with it.

... In Cardiff !

But in reality , let's take didds example of a game that starts 12v12 .. regardless of what your ref manager said, in that game you wouldn't really force the scrums to 8v8 when they went uncontested, would you ?
 

didds

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... In Cardiff !

But in reality , let's take didds example of a game that starts 12v12 .. regardless of what your ref manager said, in that game you wouldn't really force the scrums to 8v8 when they went uncontested, would you ?

we'd hope not. But lets be fair - there WILL be some ref out there that will, possibly for very good reason (eg new ref, went to society meeting, got told that's how to ref it, and is being assessed).

The issue here is the ADVICE is wrong to start with. Now some poor bugger with a whistle has to go against society advice albeit because he has a brain and his head advisor hasn't.

Now presumably anybody else in the society meeting as nobody raised these scenarios presumably? unless they did and THEN were told to do as they were told.

didds
 
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Phil E


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The key intention of this is that a team that causes uncontested cant be allowed to benefit by having the same number of backs.
The scrums must be equal so the non offending team gets the extra man in the backs and benefits from the other team going uncontested.

The Cardiff head of referees seems to be applying the letter of the law, not the intention of the law?
 

didds

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then he presumably insists that any scrum half reaching into a ruck to retrieve a stuck ball is handling in the ruck and should be PKd?

didds
 

Camquin

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As they failed to include any variation, if you go by the letter of the law, an uncontested scrum in 7s has to have 8 people in it - which is obviously nonsensical.
I would have included this in the 2018 laws - rather than leaving it as guidance.
And I woud have added the caveat - "when a side is playing with less than 15 players, a scrum can contain fewer players. an uncontested scrum must include the same number of players as previous scrums."
 

thepercy


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Scrums cannot be uncontested in 7s unless stipulated by the match organizer.

[LAWS]Uncontested scrums
Sevens variation

  1. Scrums will become uncontested if either team cannot field a suitably trained front row or if the referee so orders.
  2. A match organiser may stipulate the conditions under which a game may start with uncontested scrums.
[/LAWS]

The text in red is crossed out in the 7s variations, the copy and past formatting did not work properly.
 
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Marc Wakeham


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This is not the Cardiff Head. this is the head of the WRU referees department.

Will I enforce the ruling? Well, My answer, here, must obviously be yes.
 
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crossref


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are you sure he was answering the question you thought he was being asked?

this is one of those context questions - he might have been thinking about welsh league games. If he was asked straight out - Welsh Merit Table Div 5, Old Farts 3rd vs Llareggub 2nds - starts with 14 players each etc etc ... might he have given the same answer as the RFU I believe gave in England, and which we certainly got from our Society - - -- use a bit of referee discretion an common sense
 

Marc Wakeham


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It was very clear.

"In 15-a-siderugby uncontested scrums must be 8 v 8". Now as the guy is the senior person in the WRU's referees department, I need to give appropriate weight to his opinion.
 

crossref


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I wasn't questioning his authority, I was wondering if he would have answered differently to a question with a different context
 

TigerCraig


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I wasn't questioning his authority, I was wondering if he would have answered differently to a question with a different context

The Law Application Guideline from December 2017 specifically refers to games with 23 players per side:

"Uncontested Scrums

December 2017

Uncontested scrums for matches that involve 23 players in a squad

Some issues regarding the management of front row replacements and uncontested scrums have occurred recently. The law text and examples below are written to reinforce the application of current law: .... "
 

Marc Wakeham


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I wasn't questioning his authority, I was wondering if he would have answered differently to a question with a different context

THe context was very clear. UNcontest scrums require 8 players. End of. What I think of his "ruling" in neither here nor there. But I'd be a fool to ignore him.
 

Phil E


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It was very clear.

"In 15-a-side rugby uncontested scrums must be 8 v 8".

Did he say what to do when it's not, or no longer 15 a side?
That's what we are all getting at.
 

Phil E


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This was sent to all RFU Referee Societies by Michael D Patz, RFU Match Official Development Manager.

Summary of Global Law Trials (GLTs)
Twitter Q&A with Matthew Carley
Thursday 3rd August 2017

Law 3: Number of Players. The Team
Q: Numbers of players in an uncontested scrum. Does this also apply at U19s where
we could see 7v 7?
A: As referees we’d need to apply common sense here. If a game starts with 7v7, or
7v8 and uncontested scrums are ordered, I’d suggest we’d stay with 7v7/7v8, etc. I’d
recommend covering this off with captains/coaches before the game.
Note: When teams start with less than fifteen players the referee may take a
different approach following discussions with both captains. For example, a team
starting a game with thirteen players and not able to provide a fully trained front row
from the outset would not be expected to play with eight forwards and five backs at
each scrum.
 

crossref


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There you go. It seems so sensible I'd be surprised if the WRU really are taking a different approach
 

Marc Wakeham


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Did he say what to do when it's not, or no longer 15 a side?
That's what we are all getting at.


He said All uncontested scrums (with the caveat about 7 a side /10 a side where specifics may alter the scrum numbers by definition) Must have 8 V 8. He was very clear. What ever numbers you begin with, any unciontested scrum must be a "full" scrum.

For me there is a lack of logic. For example. You could have 8 v 6 contested (two flankers in the bin) But not 8 v 5 (uncontested) when the prop goes off an there is no STE replacement. Now I'd have thought that 8v6 contested is a potential safety issue where as 8 v 5 UNcontested carries little risk.


I accept English referees (and other countries may have different guidance from their officials. But I reiterate this is not from a Society chairman this is from the WRU Referees' department and the Head of WRU referees at that.

I do not feel it is right but I have no juristiction to overrule him.
 
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