Under 19 Variation Scrum

vimpe22


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In a under 19 scrum the law states .

UNDER-19 VARIATION

  • In an eight-person scrum, the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the number eight) shoving on the two locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.
  • When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.
  • Where a permitted reduction is made in the scrum by one team, the other team must reduce their scrum accordingly, down to a minimum of five.
  • Where there is an incomplete scrum, it must be formed as follows:
  1. Seven players – three-four formation (i.e. no number eight).
  2. Six players – three-two-one formation (i.e. no flankers).
  3. Five players – three-two formation (i.e. no flankers or number eight).


Question

1. Is there any instance where the referee insist all eight to be bound when a player is given a YC
A. If the YC is a forward .
B. If the player is a back division player.

2. Can team A. Whose forward has been YC opt for a back line layer to join the scrum on their put in and have 8 in the pack ., Does the non YC team who have eight allowed to decide on their put in .
 
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Marc Wakeham


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When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.

Covers 1A, 1B and 2 I think
 
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crossref


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The possible scenarios are not properly covered in law ...

Just make sure there are always equal numbers in the scrum
 

vimpe22


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The possible scenarios are not properly covered in law ...

Just make sure there are always equal numbers in the scrum
The under 19 law variation says . As quoted .above. i the team throwing allowed to decide eight if they are not the penalized team .
 
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crossref


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I would say best practice is . .

1 Ref determines whether the missing player was a forward or a back.

2 if a forward, all scrums are 7 v 7
If a back all scrums are 8 v 8

(Except that if scrums become uncontested they must be 8 v 8)

This seems to be pretty standard but isn't in the Law book, and begs various questions that aren't covered by Law.
 
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Marc Wakeham


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The variations are variations from the main law book. Both need to be read together
The under 19 law variation says . As quoted .above. i the team throwing allowed to decide eight if they are not the penalized team .
Your quote says:
Where a permitted reduction is made in the scrum by one team, the other team must reduce their scrum accordingly, down to a minimum of five.
 

crossref


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Scenarios that the Law book doesn't address include for instance

Hooker is YC
At the next scrum replacement hooker comes on and a winger comes off
How many in the scrum ?
 

Phil E


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There was a clarification in law (or it may have been an RFU clarification) that stated the reference to "the team" in this context meant the team of 8 forming the scrum.

This meant that lose a forward = 7v7, lose a back = 8v8.
So teams can't lose a forward and then put a back in there to maintain 8v8 scrums, or vice versa lose a back and decide to have 7 man scrums.

I will try and find it, but it was a long time ago. Why they never put it into the law book is a mystery.

FOUND IT

Clarification 6 2009


Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee​

Clarification
6-2009
Union / HP Ref Manager
ARU
Law Reference
20
Date
10 August 2009
This clarification was incorporated into law in 2009
Request
1. The U19 Law Variation refers to a team having fewer than eight players in its scrum when “…the team cannot field a complete team, or a player sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because of injury.” Does this Law Variation also apply if a player is cautioned and temporarily suspended (yellow card)?

2. The U19 law Variation refers to both teams using reduced numbers of players in the scrum formation if “…a team is incomplete…” because it is without one, two or three players. No distinction is made between forward players and back players. If a No. 15 is sent off early in a match, must both teams play with seven players in the scrum, even though both teams still have eight players suitably trained and capable of playing in the scrum?

3. If a team cannot field a complete team because it is short one or more forward player, but that team is able to provide form the available players suitably trained players to contest scrums, may the game proceed/continue with eight player scrums per team?
Ruling of the designated members of the Rugby Committee
The complete team is a reference to having eight players who can play in the scrum. If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.

If any player in the other than a forward has to leave the field for any reason and cannot be replaced there will be no reduction in the players playing in the scrum.
 
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crossref


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I remember that clarification, but it's pretty useless .. for instance it doesnt help us address the scenario in my post #7 above
 

Marc Wakeham


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That Clarification was incorporated into law in 2009. Therefore just read the current law book and Age grade variations.
 

Marc Wakeham


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The CURRENT U19 Law varition is as follows:

6. All players in the three front-row positions and the two lock positions must be
suitably trained for these positions. If a team cannot field such suitably trained
players for whatever reason, then the referee must order uncontested scrums.
Uncontested scrums as a result of a sending off, temporary suspension or injury
must be played with eight players per side.

a. In an eight-person scrum, the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single
player (normally the number eight) shoving on the two locks. The locks
must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.
b. When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of
players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.

c. Where a permitted reduction is made in the scrum by one team, the other
team must reduce their scrum accordingly, down to a minimum of five.
d. Where there is an incomplete scrum, it must be formed as follows :
i. Seven players – three-four formation (i.e. no number eight).
ii. Six players – three-two-one formation (i.e. no flankers).
iii. Five players – three-two formation (i.e. no flankers or number eight).
Sanction: Free-kick.

Therefore the OP must be ignored.

So to answer the questions:

Question

1. Is there any instance where the referee insist all eight to be bound when a player is given a YC
A. If the YC is a forward . If UC scrums are forced then it must be 8 Vs 8 as per the first paragraph of 6.
B. If the player is a back division player. Scrums will be 7 Vs as Per 6.b.

2. Can team A. Whose forward has been YC opt for a back line layer to join the scrum on their put in and have 8 in the pack. Does the non YC team who have eight allowed to decide on their put in . In 15we have 3. 18. Only when no replacement front-row player is available is any other player permitted to play in the front row.
So if you are bringing a LHP on to replace the hooker but the prop is not STE as a hooker why would yo uput a winger into the pack when you have three props on the field? Also If you are still contested, why would you take a forward off and stick a back up front? The variations for U19 do not give a variation from this so full laws apply to this point.
Both scrums much match numbers so it team A have 7 forward team be must move one out into the backs whoever has the put in.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Contested scrum reduce to 7 Vs 7
When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of
players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.

Had the card resulted in an uncontested scrum
Uncontested scrums as a result of a sending off, temporary suspension or injury
must be played with eight players per side.


Would apply so we would have 8 Vs 8
 

crossref


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Would apply so we would have 8 Vs 8
I wouldn't disagree, but would note that the offending team has determined whether the game proceeds with 7 or 8
And that presumbly another substitutioncould change it
 

Marc Wakeham


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I wouldn't disagree, but would note that the offending team has determined whether the game proceeds with 7 or 8
And that presumbly another substitutioncould change it

Only if the substitution brought back contested scrums. How could that possibly happen? Where does the STE player suddenly come from?
 

crossref


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Only if the substitution brought back contested scrums. How could that possibly happen? Where does the STE player suddenly come from?
The scenario is that

hooker gets YC
At the next scrum a replacement hooker comes on (as he must )
- if they choose to take a winger off we have 8 in scrum
- alternatively if they take a flanker off we have 7

Let's say they took off the winger, so we have 8 in the scrum

After a while the #8 gets injured and they bring that winger back on again .. so 7 in scrum

Rinse and repeat
 

Marc Wakeham


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Are the scrums contested or uncontested if they are uncontested there must be 8 , whoever come off. If the are contested it is 7 whoever goes off.
When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of
players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.
So, if they winger or the flanker off we are down to 14 with contested scrums so 7 in the pack. However, if we have to go uncontested we have the following law, Uncontested scrums as a result of a sending off, temporary suspension or injury must be played with eight players per side.

What law are you using to have 8 in the scrum if the winger goes off?
 

Stu10

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I think this is ANOTHER example of the law wording being sub optimal and open to reading in different ways.

When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of
players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.


My interpretation is this - if the reduction to fewer than 15 results in a reduced number of players in the scrum for one team, then the other team must also reduce their number of players in the scrum similarly (i.e. number of players from each team in the scrum must match).

I believe the second half of this sentence, the number of players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced, means the number of players on each side of the scrum must be similarly reduced, not reduce the number of players in the scrum similarly to the number of players that have left the pitch.

Therefore, if red winger is removed from the pitch for a YC and red put 8 in the next scrum, thus zero reduction of players in the scrum, then blue team must similarly have zero reduction of players in the scrum... therefore 8 v 8. If red lose a flanker and put 7 in the next scrum, then blue must similarly put 7 in the scrum.

My understanding is that the age-grade variations try to make scrums as safe as possible within the boundaries of the laws, and therefore insist that both teams have the same number of players to avoid a mismatch. Pushing the scrum more than 1.5 metres towards the opponents’ goal line is not allowed, also showing the emphasis on safety at the scrum. If a winger is sent off for a YC, forcing the scrums to 7v7 does not increase safety. If a forward is sent off for a YC and red cannot put 8 in the scrum, forcing the scrums to 7v7 (rather than 7v8) makes sense from a safety perspective.

Also, as I've said in other posts, I think common sense often gets the correct outcome when trying to interpret rugby laws... reducing a scrum to 7v7 because a winger was sent off does not make sense.

I think there is value in looking at how this law has changed:

OLD
When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, then the number of players in each team in the scrum may be similarly reduced.

NEW
When a team is reduced to fewer than 15 for any reason, the number of players in each team in the scrum must be similarly reduced.

The new wording is designed to ensure scrums must be equal numbers, not to insist that any reduction in players must result in a reduction of players in the scrum.
 

Phil E


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You are essentially correct. You need to read the law in conjunction with the clarification. The law doesn't explain it like the clarification does.
 

Stu10

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Scenarios that the Law book doesn't address include for instance

Hooker is YC
At the next scrum replacement hooker comes on and a winger comes off
How many in the scrum ?

I think 8 in the scrum
 
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