Unofficial referee signals?

[Stu10]

Alas no

The referee awards a scrum for any other reason not covered in law.
In the scrum zone at the point closest to the place of stoppage.
The team that was last moving forward or, if neither team was moving forward, the attacking team

But in practice yes.

In practice no.

If a player has caught the ball in his own 22 and is stationary when you blow to stop play, if you restart with a scrum, the other team are the attacking team (and the team that were last moving forward with possession).

 

[Decorily]

In practice no.

If a player has caught the ball in his own 22 and is stationary when you blow to stop play, if you restart with a scrum, the other team are the attacking team (and the team that were last moving forward with possession).

Yes, exactly. That's the point !

Edit. That's why I said it could be a hard sell and crossref said " alas no" !

 

[Decorily]

In practice no.

If a player has caught the ball in his own 22 and is stationary when you blow to stop play, if you restart with a scrum, the other team are the attacking team (and the team that were last moving forward with possession).

Don't confuse possession with moving forward.

A team doesn’t need to be in possession to be moving forward!

Edit...And of course a team doesn’t need to be in possession to be attacking!

 

[crossref]

In practice no.

If a player has caught the ball in his own 22 and is stationary when you blow to stop play, if you restart with a scrum, the other team are the attacking team (and the team that were last moving forward with possession).

For avoidance of doubt.. The scenario is: I didn't see or hear any call for mark, but Red 15 seems to genuinely think there was one and so I stop the game as I fear for his safety, and give the mark.

If it turns out Red 15 did indeed call a mark .... then happy days all is well, mark given.

If it turns that that he didn't claim a mark .. and I have needlessly stopped the game as a safety precaution then I would restart with a scrum to Red

I know what the Law book says (I quoted it) but imo scrum red would be the best call.

 

[Decorily]

For avoidance of doubt.. The scenario is: I didn't see or hear any call for mark, but Red 15 seems to genuinely think there was one and so I stop the game as I fear for his safety, and give the mark.

If it turns out Red 15 did indeed call a mark .... then happy days all is well, mark given.

If it turns that that he didn't claim a mark .. and I have needlessly stopped the game as a safety precaution then I would restart with a scrum to Red

I know what the Law book says (I quoted it) but imo scrum red would be the best call.

You could have seen R15 take half a step forward just before you blew the whistle! !

 

[chbg]

The Laws should change with the times and allow a Mark to be claimed by either calling 'Mark' or raising an arm.

Comment: probably pretty difficult to "simultaneously" catch a ball and raise an arm. Given that we don'd often hear the call, how many times is it called 'simultaneously'?! Could 'immediately' be used here more appropriately?

 

[SimonSmith]

Personally I feel that in lower level games and certainly in youth games whistle should be blown where a player seems to think they will be awarded a mark and has stopped playing rather than wait for them to be unexpectedly 'clattered'!

I had a game where the full back, as soon as the kick went up, called "mark", much as they call "fair catch" in American Football.

I was yelling at him "you call mark when you catch it", which he ignored. Clattering ensued.

 

[crossref]

I had a game where the full back, as soon as the kick went up, called "mark", much as they call "fair catch" in American Football.

I was yelling at him "you call mark when you catch it", which he ignored. Clattering ensued.

If same happened in your game next week would you consider blowing your whistle for safety and awarding a scrum ?

Or awarding the mark he shouted for, and then pause to explain the law ? (best, I think)

Or is a good clattering the best way to learn him?

 

[SimonSmith]

If same happened in your game next week would you consider blowing your whistle for safety and awarding a scrum ?

Or awarding the mark he shouted for, and then pause to explain the law ? (best, I think)

Or is a good clattering the best way to learn him?

Over here? I'm not sure why you seem to determined to disadvantage the kicking team as a result of a player being a dumbfuck.

 

[crossref]

Safety?

If there is a serious injury then , in England, we now have to write a report.
If the foreseeable clattering put him in hospital I wouldn't want to be writing up an incident like that , I think you might be failing a duty of care to allow it .

But also I interpret the Law differently. I think the salient thing in the Law is that the player has to clearly indicate he wants the mark, which he did. So give the mark.

I think it's a bit pedantic to say that you knew he wanted a mark, it was clear, but he didn't indicate it in exactly the right way. Same as the arm raise

 

[Stu10]

I'm somewhat torn on this one. I agree safety needs to be considered. Equally, I often see players not call a mark when they should have, or not take advantage dotting a long kick off that goes in goal, and I consider that a broad understanding of the law and making the right decision under pressure separates the better players from the herd, and as a referee it's not my job to correct that.

Back to crossref's point, if it was age grade and a player was playing for the mark and didn't quite get the process right, and was just standing there about to be smashed into next week, then I might blow my whistle... but equally, I wonder what type of player catches the ball at the back, expects the mark, and when there is no whistle, just stands there and watches someone fly in from 10m away to smash them without doing or saying something?

 

[Phil E]

Safety?

If there is a serious injury then , in England, we now have to write a report.
If the foreseeable clattering put him in hospital I wouldn't want to be writing up an incident like that , I think you might be failing a duty of care to allow it .

But also I interpret the Law differently. I think the salient thing in the Law is that the player has to clearly indicate he wants the mark, which he did. So give the mark.

I think it's a bit pedantic to say that you knew he wanted a mark, it was clear, but he didn't indicate it in exactly the right way. Same as the arm raise

Do you also apply this to other areas of the law? Where do you draw the line?

i.e. a kick into in goal is picked up buy a defender, but instead of dotting it down, he just stands there. Do you blow up just in case he thought it was dead.

 

[crossref]

... but equally, I wonder what type of player catches the ball at the back, expects the mark, and when there is no whistle, just stands there and watches someone fly in from 10m away to smash them without doing or saying something?

Someone who didn't see it coming?

Someone like @smeagol in post 27.
@smeagol , what happened?

 

[crossref]

Do you also apply this to other areas of the law? Where do you draw the line?

i.e. a kick into in goal is picked up buy a defender, but instead of dotting it down, he just stands there. Do you blow up just in case he thought it was dead.

can't really visualize why this would happen and why it would be dangerous.

alternative scenario
- attacker intercepts and sprints 30m to score ... but by mistake 'scores' on the 5m line
- he gets to his feet, fist pumps in the air, back still to the pitch, clebrating as he thinks he has scored, but still holding the ball
- you can see (but he can't) a pursuing defender running full speed who is clearly about going to 'clatter' him very heavily from behind, unexpectedly, in the small of the back

would you allow that to happen, or would you blow your whistle quickly for safety?

 

[Stu10]

can't really visualize why this would happen and why it would be dangerous.

alternative scenario
- attacker intercepts and sprints 30m to score ... but by mistake 'scores' on the 5m line
- he gets to his feet, fist pumps in the air, back still to the pitch, clebrating as he thinks he has scored, but still holding the ball
- you can see (but he can't) a pursuing defender running full speed who is clearly about going to 'clatter' him very heavily from behind, unexpectedly, in the small of the back

would you allow that to happen, or would you blow your whistle quickly for safety?

Would you restart with an attacking scrum on the 5m line? If yes, that's a big "get out of jail"!

 

[crossref]

Would you restart with an attacking scrum on the 5m line? If yes, that's a big "get out of jail"!

Not sure, would think about it after. It's not really a consideration that trumps safety is it ?

 

[didds]

so he catches it and takes half a step forward - job done.

 

[Phil E]

would you allow that to happen, or would you blow your whistle quickly for safety?

Neither. I would shout "no try, play on, play on".

There's a boxers axiom that says "defend yourself at all times". It should also apply to rugby. Along with play to the whistle.

 

[crossref]

Neither. I would shout "no try, play on, play on".

There's a boxers axiom that says "defend yourself at all times". It should also apply to rugby. Along with play to the whistle.

Boxing hardly the same

Let's try another

Ball carrier sprinting down wing and ref on next pitch gives a loud whistle
Ball carrier stops , thinking whistle has gone, he must have put a foot in touch.

Would let him be clattered (ho ho! His fault ) or blow for safety ?

 

[Phil E]

Boxing hardly the same

Let's try another

Ball carrier sprinting down wing and ref on next pitch gives a loud whistle
Ball carrier stops , thinking whistle has gone, he must have put a foot in touch.

Would let him be clattered (ho ho! His fault ) or blow for safety ?

Ah...so you didn't like the answer I gave to your scenario...so are coming up with another one.
How many scenarios are we going to go through until you get the answer you want to fit your narrative?

Sorry, not playing that game.