Vakatawa hard done by?

[Dixie]

Final pass from Biggar is knocked forward by Vakatawa in the process of making a tackle. The tackle was a textbook double-arm wrap - perhaps the most suspicious thing about it. Earned V a YC. Fair call?

 

[Christy]

Thought card was correct ,,
Think the french scrums are poor ( clever ) ,,but they getting away with .
Tight head not binding properly , in front of ref & lines man on 2 occasions .
Scrums are collapsing and wales being penalised ??

 

[UpandUnder]

I think Wayne Barnes isn't having the best day. Very inconsistent

 

[Rich_NL]

I thought it was harsh.

 

[pedr]

Who should have taken responsibility for telling Wayne Barnes that he hadn't stopped the clock while working out the substitution after the yellow card?

 

[UpandUnder]

Should the sin binned player have been allowed to return? Additional time does not normally count towards the sin bin.

 

[DocY]

I thought the call was harsh, but can't understand why it wasn't a penalty try. Once you've decided it was deliberate (which I don't think it was) it has to be a card and penalty try.

 

[DocY]

Should the sin binned player have been allowed to return? Additional time does not normally count towards the sin bin.

Well I think it settles the question. Additional time does count towards the YC, but the question was whether there was any mechanism for the player to be allowed back on. In this case, I think it was because they opted for a scrum.

 

[merge]

I was surprised by no penalty try for that incident (Barnes's explanation that he couldn't be "certain" is a much stronger test than "probably".)

Equally I was surprised by the lack of a second YC to Wales at the end considering the number of penalties, though to YC a prop at that time wouldn't have helped France. In particular for the quick tap penalty where Wales were penalised for not 10 looked like it could easily be a penalty try to France.

 

[OB..]

Should the sin binned player have been allowed to return? Additional time does not normally count towards the sin bin.

The law simply refers to "10 minutes playing time", and the extra was certainly playing time.

 

[OB..]

I thought the call was harsh, but can't understand why it wasn't a penalty try. Once you've decided it was deliberate (which I don't think it was) it has to be a card and penalty try.

A penalty try is only awarded if the foul play prevents a probable try. It is generally argued that unless a scrum is clearly going over the line (some people simply require moving forward) there can be no probable try. However there can still be deliberate foul play. I think WB actually made that point at one stage.

 

[DocY]

A penalty try is only awarded if the foul play prevents a probable try. It is generally argued that unless a scrum is clearly going over the line (some people simply require moving forward) there can be no probable try. However there can still be deliberate foul play. I think WB actually made that point at one stage.

Yep, completely agree (and got into an argument on this point in the club house).

I was referring to the Vakatawa knock on. IMO had it not happened, North would have probably scored, so if the ref thought it was deliberate it had to be a penalty try.

 

[ChuckieB]

Yep, completely agree (and got into an argument on this point in the club house).

I was referring to the Vakatawa knock on. IMO had it not happened, North would have probably scored, so if the ref thought it was deliberate it had to be a penalty try.

without the ball safely in north's hands I challenge whether you can actually say it was so probable. A momentary eye off the ball and a look towards the line and he could have spilled it!

Of course he is GN, that could never have happened to him.:wink:

 

[Julien Cazenave]

I would say yes because I dont think it was as much deliberate (if it is English) than the previous one from Wales. For me the issue was not hard yellow or not but inconsistency or not

 

[DocY]

without the ball safely in north's hands I challenge whether you can actually say it was so probable. A momentary eye off the ball and a look towards the line and he could have spilled it!

Of course he is GN, that could never have happened to him.:wink:

Sure, there's a chance he could drop it, but the law doesn't say the try should be certain or beyond reasonable doubt. It says it should be probable (I.e. More likely than not, no mention of any degrees of probability) and I think you can say an international player would probably score if the ball had reached them in this position.

 

[OB..]

It says it should be probable (I.e. More likely than not, no mention of any degrees of probability)

In my experience, the requirement is significantly higher than 50-50.

 

[ChuckieB]

In the light of 10.2(a) & 12.1(f), having actually chosen to YC him, he should reasonably have awarded the penalty try. I personally would have just awarded a penalty. GN looked to have been at risk of overrunning any pass.

 

[irishref]

Should the sin binned player have been allowed to return? Additional time does not normally count towards the sin bin.

I seem to recall a game featuring Georgia at the last world cup. Their captain (Gorgodze) was sinbinned with about 5 mins left in the first half. The first half didn't end til about 47 minutes had been played, but Gorgodze wasn't allowed back until 5 minutes had elapsed in the 2nd half.

 

[Paule23]

Final pass from Biggar is knocked forward by Vakatawa in the process of making a tackle. The tackle was a textbook double-arm wrap - perhaps the most suspicious thing about it. Earned V a YC. Fair call?

I thought so, it was a good attempt by the player to disguise a knock on as an accidental part of a tackle attempt, but I viewed this in the same way WB did, a deliberate knock on, followed by an attempted tackle. My only query was he penalised Wales for something similar earlier in the game but no YC that time.

i agree there is an argument for PT here, without the knock on in my view it is probable the winger would have scored. I suppose you can say there is no guarantee they would have caught the pass, hence enough doubt to say no PT.

 

[Pinky]

I thought so, it was a good attempt by the player to disguise a knock on as an accidental part of a tackle attempt, but I viewed this in the same way WB did, a deliberate knock on, followed by an attempted tackle. My only query was he penalised Wales for something similar earlier in the game but no YC that time.

i agree there is an argument for PT here, without the knock on in my view it is probable the winger would have scored. I suppose you can say there is no guarantee they would have caught the pass, hence enough doubt to say no PT.

For me it was one of those things you could see either way. The problem I had was not with the YC, but that WB had indicated it was the same as the Wales KO near the start of the game, but then got a lot of chat from Wales to have a look at the replay - they did not look at the Wales KO.