Wal v Aus: Coach Verbally Attacks Officials

OB..


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The video clearly shows that there was in fact no knock-on. There was also no whistle. So what is there to moan about?

Very good spot by the referee.
 

Zebra1922


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I am not so sure. I think it's one of those situations where the best decision is the one that all thirty players are expecting.

It was a bit of a gotcha

But if he had blown up he’d be getting criticism for stopping a potential try with a mistake. At least this way he correctly allowed a try.
 

Zebra1922


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Yes, but we also don't want the ref to be the talking point, and the centre of the game , we would rather be invisible

Knock on would have helped with that. It's the expected decision

It might be the expected decision, but surely can’t be appropriate if it is the wrong decision. Surely we should be aiming to get things right not expected.
 

Arabcheif

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It might be the expected decision, but surely can’t be appropriate if it is the wrong decision. Surely we should be aiming to get things right not expected.


This in spades. I'd rather give the right decision (if I can), than the expected one. Yes players are gonna disagree but you can only ref what you see.

I had a ladies match last weekend (not the one past), defending team were claiming leasing with the fore arm. 4 times they claimed this. 1st time I didn't have a great view, 2nd and 3rd an open hand makes contact first and the 4th time the ball carrier was holding the ball and the arm did make contact but there was no movement of the arm, both arms were tightly round them ball. So not leading. So I shouted a response to the claims and played on. Given the defending team expected a PK (at least). So right call, rather than expected.
 

Rich_NL

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I thought it was backwards watching in real time.

Earlier this season I reffed a match in which blue 12 was ahead of the kicker, and red were racing back against (onside) blue 11 to get to the ball. I called "hold blue 12, get onside" and called "thank you" when he complied. The linesman (a red player from the bench) was pointing at blue 12 shouting "he's offside! He's offside!" at which the red defenders hesitated, stopped, looked around at me, and blue 11 scored. Lots of tutting and dark looks from the home supporters (red) who'd heard their linesman's opinion and saw it as the ref missing a clear offside.

Try stood, defenders got a rollicking from the captain about playing to the whistle, and a new linesman was found. I hope I was right to avoid refereeing to the court of public opinion.
 

Balones

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I can’t believe that some people are moaning about a referee getting a decision right!
MA did exactly what he is ‘expected’ to do at that level of game.
 

dave_clark


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I can’t believe that some people are moaning about a referee getting a decision right!
MA did exactly what he is ‘expected’ to do at that level of game.

a few years ago, Gloucester vs Cardiff in the challenge cup final. Gloucester attacking, final pass to Lewis Ludlow (Ludlum? always forget which is which!) called forward by the ref, the commentators, me on my sofa, everyone. Full speed, real time, it looked forward. when the replays came up, which they did on the big screen of course, it was clearly not forward. perfectly good try chalked off.

those situations with a TMO etc, play on and check if applicable. much better than the alternative of not allowing what should have been a score. our levels? make the call as you see it in real time.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I really can't see why, as a referee, someone would prefer a wrong call that keeps everyone happy rather than a correct call.

Obviously, out in the sticks we would problably call it as forward and nobody would complain. But in the case being discussed we have TMO etc SO GET IT RIGHT must be the motto. Being able to play on and come back to the TMO makes obvious sense.
 

UpandUnder

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Yes, but we also don't want the ref to be the talking point, and the centre of the game , we would rather be invisible

Knock on would have helped with that. It's the expected decision


No, it would have been a wrong decision.

Expected decisions are for cases where we may be able to play away but chose not to as there has been a clear and obvious offence.
 

SimonSmith


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Yes, but we also don't want the ref to be the talking point, and the centre of the game , we would rather be invisible

Knock on would have helped with that. It's the expected decision

Normal service has resumed. I cannot disagree with this more strongly.

Knock on would have been wrong and denied the score. Let's now make this, for example, a WC semi final and not just an Autumn Tour. One score difference and it's this one.

You are saying a team should be denied the opportunity to go to the WC final because the ref should give an expected and not the correct decision? Really?
 

Marc Wakeham


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normal service has resumed. I cannot disagree with this more strongly.

Knock on would have been wrong and denied the score. Let's now make this, for example, a wc semi final and not just an autumn tour. One score difference and it's this one.

You are saying a team should be denied the opportunity to go to the wc final because the ref should give an expected and not the correct decision? Really?

spot on!
 

DocY


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This incident reminded me of a lecture I got from an advisor once about the difference between a bad call and a wrong call.

There are some things that as a referee you're expected to get right, and if you get them wrong it's a bad decision; there are some things you'd be expected to get wrong (like this one) and if you get them wrong it's okay - either nobody will notice or they'll understand.

But this was one of those really good calls where you'd expect the referee to get it wrong, but he actually got it right! If he'd called a knock-on, nobody would have cared and it wouldn't be a talking point - maybe someone saying "I don't think that went forward, you know" but that would be it.

I see CR's point - it needed a replay to show he was right, which the likes of me and thee wouldn't have - so if we'd given a knock on, it'd have been a reasonable decision.

But he did have the replays so most of the discussion is probably caused by the Australians stopping playing! And the ref couldn't do much about that.
 
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Flish


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Closest I’ve had to this was a maul near touch, body of players crossed the line and flag went up at same moment I called “not out, play on” as I saw the ball ripped and played before touch - except everyone stopped for the flag, so I brought it back for a scrum to the team in possession, thanked the TJ and explained all. But at least in this case the players had a reasonable expectation that a whistle was coming as they could see the flag, play on would have been harsh.

It’s embarrassing that pros and their coaches can’t play to the whistle, what chance do we have at U7!
 

crossref


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Yes I like this bit

.Sydneysider Marshall, who controlled 28 Tests between 1993-2003, is increasingly disillusioned over the TMO's constant interference.

He believes referees are losing the feel for a game.

Talking about the Tompkins incident, Marshall said: "In my day, if 30 players thought it was a knock on then you'd rule a knock on.

"That's what I reckon happened in that situation.

"If he'd blown his whistle straight away, no-one would have questioned it.

"Even the player that's scored the try has gone 'I don’t think it’s going to be a try'.

"There were no celebrations under the posts….he knew it was likely to be pulled back.

"That's the way we used to rule. We definitely looked at reaction and body language of players."

The body language of frustrated and infuriated fans would suggest World Rugby has a crisis on its hands.

The game is being strangled to death by its own laws.
 

Marc Wakeham


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This incident reminded me of a lecture I got from an advisor once about the difference between a bad call and a wrong call.

There are some things that as a referee you're expected to get right, and if you get them wrong it's a bad decision; there are some things you'd be expected to get wrong (like this one) and if you get them wrong it's okay - either nobody will notice or they'll understand.

But this was one of those really good calls where you'd expect the referee to get it wrong, but he actually got it right! If he'd called a knock-on, nobody would have cared and it wouldn't be a talking point - maybe someone saying "I don't think that went forward, you know" but that would be it.

I see CR's point - it needed a replay to show he was right, which the likes of me and thee wouldn't have - so if we'd given a knock on, it'd have been a reasonable decision.

But he did have the replays so most of the discussion is probably caused by the Australians stopping playing! And the ref couldn't do much about that.

Agree totally.
 

dave_clark


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But he did have the replays so most of the discussion is probably caused by the Australians stopping playing! And the ref couldn't do much about that.

my one game so far since my return, i heard the home captain on more than one occasion shout "play to the whistle boys" (with embellishments being added the more times he had to say it). if Dan from Benfleet Vikings knows that basic rule of thumb, there is no reason for anyone else not to.

now in my case it was probably because i had missed something (it's what happens at Essex Merit Table 6 West!), but the concept is the same.
 

Jz558


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Yes I like this bit

In his day that would have been fine, but today when 30 players then rewatch it on the big screen immediately afterwards they'll know it was the wrong decision. They might not like it but they can't argue with it.

And from Dickie E's quoted article "Please tell us what's positive about watching 63 replays and holding an already stop-start game up for a further five minutes." Doesnt happen in my games, I make a decision and off we go. I feel another law change coming on because those who only ever watch TV rugby cant understand that some decisions are made "in the referee's opinion"
 

Rich_NL

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Talking about the Tompkins incident, Marshall said: "In my day, if 30 players thought it was a knock on then you'd rule a knock on.

In his day, people also played to the whistle and didn't throw up their arms and stare at the ref.
 

crossref


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In his day, people also played to the whistle and didn't throw up their arms and stare at the ref.

because he didn't normally make a decision at odds with what all 30 players are expecting?

I do appreciate there are two points of view here. Perhaps, given the TMO, the norms of international rugby, his instructions from WR, JA made the correct call. But I am not so sure that passage was any good for the game.

back at grassroots: if a ref gives a decision that is at odds with what all 30 players are expecting, as a rule of thumb that's going to be a poor call.
 
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