Wales hands in the scrum

didds

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and also... just to add insult to injury maybe :) - the scrum had been reset cos the cardiff turf yet again broke up, and thescrum was brought INFIELD several metres, extending the width of the blindside. had it been reset several metres towards the touchline there may not have been the room for Webb to get round the outside.

Is there a protocol for which direction scrum resets for footing reasons should move?

didds

didds
 

Dixie


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[LAWS]20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.[/LAWS]

The only question for me is, was the ball at Falatau's feet when he unbound?

- If it wasn't, the he has infringed under 20.3 (f)

- If it was, then he has unbound legally, the scrum is over, and he can reach in as far as he likes to get the ball.

That's not correct Ian.

The scrum is over, not when he unbinds, but when he unbinds and picks the ball up (see bold above).
Actually, I think Ian was spot on. The permission for the #8 to unbind and pick up the ball is an exception from two other laws: scrummagers must bind from start to finish; and no handling in the scrum. The #8 pickup can only happen if two conditions are in place:

1) the ball is at #8's feet; and
2) the #8, having unbound, immediately picks up the ball.

You have focused on 2, but Ian was correct to focus first on 1. Whether or not Falatau immediately picked up, he should have been pinged as the ball was not at his feet.
 

Phil E


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Actually, I think Ian was spot on. The permission for the #8 to unbind and pick up the ball is an exception from two other laws: scrummagers must bind from start to finish; and no handling in the scrum. The #8 pickup can only happen if two conditions are in place:

1) the ball is at #8's feet; and
2) the #8, having unbound, immediately picks up the ball.

You have focused on 2, but Ian was correct to focus first on 1. Whether or not Falatau immediately picked up, he should have been pinged as the ball was not at his feet.

Your'e missing the point.
Ian was saying that the scrum ends when the No8 unbinds.
I was pointing out that the scrum ends when the No8 unbinds AND picks up the ball. Both actions must be performed for the scrum to be over.

- If it was, then he has unbound legally, the scrum is over, and he can reach in as far as he likes to get the ball.

The "scrum is over" part of this sentence should be at the end (after unbinding and picking up have been completed), not in the middle (between unbinding and picking up).
 

Pegleg

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It's surely not a question of whether it's "playable"; it's simply a question of whether the ball was at the #8's feet. Garcés could see it wasn't - he's looking at the ball (which he can clearly see - it's in the tunnel, after all) throughout - and the AR ditto. If neither of them could see the Welsh #8 crawling around in the second row, completely unbound, grabbing the ball from the tunnel, how were either of them going to be able to see any offences at that scrum?

Mind you, neither of them noticed Youngs being a good 2m offside...

And therein lies the rub. The gave what they saw. Why they saw what they saw is another question.
 

Dixie


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Your'e missing the point.
Ian was saying that the scrum ends when the No8 unbinds.
:shrug: seems to me you're missing Ian's point. Only he can tell us which point he was making. No doubt he will help us out here in due course.
 

crossref


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and also... just to add insult to injury maybe :) - the scrum had been reset cos the cardiff turf yet again broke up, and thescrum was brought INFIELD several metres, extending the width of the blindside. had it been reset several metres towards the touchline there may not have been the room for Webb to get round the outside.

Is there a protocol for which direction scrum resets for footing reasons should move?

didds

didds

I noticed that as well -- the blind side move became instantly more attractive. Although of course that must have been obvious for both teams.
 

Pegleg

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I always move to the nearest suitable area of the pitch. Of course in the cabbage patch that is the Millstone That could be a long way away.
 

didds

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the blindside easy score of 8-9-14 was already on the cards, but the move 5m infield made it an almost dead cert with all the extra space to run around in and the touch-line defender is too far way to help.

Maybe the s/half could have zipped around to the blindside after the put in... but then arguably the pack had done its job, Haskell stayed fully bound and shoving to make sure of the scrum drive, and after Falateu had gone potholing without censure it was easy pickings.

didds
 

OB..


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I'm not saying that they are correct but that I can, as Ian suggets, understand why no whistle was heard.
I can't. I can only suppose it was such an unusual event that they simply did not process it properly. I would be horrified if it did not come up in the post-match analysis.

I think Faletau's offence preceded Young's offside.
 

Taff


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I can't. I can only suppose it was such an unusual event that they simply did not process it properly. I would be horrified if it did not come up in the post-match analysis.
Exactly. In the cold light of day and sat on a comfy sofa with a latte, I'm sure Garces would have said it was illegal. It's more complicated when it's an unusual event which happens fast.

Thankfully it didn't affect the result. The right team won on the day.
 

RobLev

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I can't. I can only suppose it was such an unusual event that they simply did not process it properly. I would be horrified if it did not come up in the post-match analysis.

I think Faletau's offence preceded Young's offside.

I'm not convinced that's right - I think at 8 seconds on the short clip linked above Youngs has got one foot ahead of the ball while Faletau is still bound and hasn't yet handled the ball. By 9 seconds he's definitively behind the HMF of the Welsh scrum, although by then Faletau has gone mining for the ball.

The more general point is that either ref or AR need to watch the ball even if only to police SH offside - and in this instance it appeared to be Garcés who seemed to have a clear view of the ball, but missed everything.
 
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crossref


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I can't. I can only suppose it was such an unusual event that they simply did not process it properly. I would be horrified if it did not come up in the post-match analysis..

is it that unusual - I have penalised it once before.
 

Browner

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and also... just to add insult to injury maybe :) - the scrum had been reset cos the cardiff turf yet again broke up, and thescrum was brought INFIELD several metres, extending the width of the blindside. had it been reset in the same place ,or several metres towards the touchline there would not have been the room for Webb to get round the outside.

Is there a protocol for which direction scrum resets for footing reasons should move?

didds

FTFY, but a damned good question .... My gut feeling is the side feeding gets to choose under AAdv2A principles.
 

Browner

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Exactly. In the cold light of day and sat on a comfy sofa with a latte, I'm sure Garces would have said it was illegal. It's more complicated when it's an unusual event which happens fast.

Thankfully it didn't affect the result. The right team won on the day.

Ahem, isn't that a 'justified' use of TMO review then?, at least it wasn't 3 phases previous !!!!
 

Ian_Cook


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I'm not convinced that's right - I think at 8 seconds on the short clip linked above Youngs has got one foot ahead of the ball while Faletau is still bound and hasn't yet handled the ball.

Well, that makes Youngs offside then.

[LAWS]20.12 OFFSIDE AT THE SCRUM
(c) When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of the opposing team is offside if
that scrum half steps in front of the ball with either foot
while the ball is still in the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

England may have been pushing Wales backwards, but Wales won the ball at the scrum. Youngs was required to have both his feet behind the ball. Only the ball winning SH is allowed a foot in front of the ball.

[LAWS](b) Offside for scrum-halves. When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that
team is offside if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum. If the scrum
half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]
 

Ian_Cook


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That's not correct Ian.

The scrum is over, not when he unbinds, but when he unbinds and picks the ball up (see bold above). So if he fails to pick up the ball as soon as he has unbound, then he has unbound early....which is exactly what happened....PK.

PS: just watched the video again, and the 8 is still bound with his left arm when he first reaches in with his right arm! Eventually he has to release his left arm bind because the ball is so far in the scrum he can't reach otherwise!


That' an interesting interpretation. I've always considered the scrum over when the No. 8 unbinds with the ball at his feet because the ball is now out of the scrum (i.e. behind the hindmost foot of the remaining bound players).

If what you say is true, then all those SHs who lurk at the back of the opposing scrum and attempt to pick up the ball before the No. 8 does are offside because the scrum offside laws would still apply until the No. 8 has picked it up. I have never seen a SH PK for this!
 

RobLev

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Well, that makes Youngs offside then.

[LAWS]20.12 OFFSIDE AT THE SCRUM
(c) When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of the opposing team is offside if
that scrum half steps in front of the ball with either foot
while the ball is still in the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

England may have been pushing Wales backwards, but Wales won the ball at the scrum. Youngs was required to have both his feet behind the ball. Only the ball winning SH is allowed a foot in front of the ball.

[LAWS](b) Offside for scrum-halves. When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that
team is offside if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum. If the scrum
half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Entirely agree; that was why I disagreed with OB as to who offended first.
 

tim White


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Entirely agree; that was why I disagreed with OB as to who offended first.

But if the number 8 picks up the ball and moves away from the offside scrum half is it material? -I appreciate you could argue cutting down options but they are already within touching distance.
 

OB..


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Entirely agree; that was why I disagreed with OB as to who offended first.
You may well be right, but at normal speed it is not C&O.

However surely the first offence(s) come from the Wales scrum - both locks and the THP lose their binding in the initial heave by England.

As so often, the referee can choose from a number of offences. Youngs being offside would surely not be considered material in the circumstances.

It certainly doesn't excuse Faletau, and his action was highly material!
 

OB..


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That' an interesting interpretation. I've always considered the scrum over when the No. 8 unbinds with the ball at his feet because the ball is now out of the scrum (i.e. behind the hindmost foot of the remaining bound players).

If what you say is true, then all those SHs who lurk at the back of the opposing scrum and attempt to pick up the ball before the No. 8 does are offside because the scrum offside laws would still apply until the No. 8 has picked it up. I have never seen a SH PK for this!
There is a grey area: if the #8 unbinds so that his scrum half can pick up the ball, is that legal? I think not, because the likely purpose of the law is to allow the #8 break, and it is not intended to allow him to shield his scrum half so he can make a break.

However the case of the opposing scrum half going for the ball once the #8 has unbound is not covered by the law. The #8 would normally unbind with his back shielding the ball until he can pick it up. Obviously we must allow that, provided he does not delay unduly.

In this case, of course, Faletau unbound before the ball was at his feet, so the question does not arise.
 
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