Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

Flish


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I’m English, I’m biased, but not convinced the French ref is having a good game. In reverse order;

2nd Welsh try, for me the Welsh winger is in possession as trying to gather the ball, knocks forward on to himself, doesn’t regather therefore a knock on.

1st try, kudos to Wales for spotting it, but time is off as ref has asked Farrell to go speak to his players re penalty count, so White are in a huddle, he then puts time back on as the huddle is breaking but some players still have their back to the ball, and certainly not set to receive - Wales kick to the corner, caught, try - how is that fair, and massively avoidable. Talk about a gotcha!
 

Pedro

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I’m Welsh and I’d agree with you for the first try- unfair (although well spotted and fair play to our 10), so your not being biased.
Second try - I think the decision was correct , but totally understandable that there are questions and I’ve seen those given as knock-one many many times.
 

Treadmore

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I’m Welsh and I’d agree with you for the first try- unfair (although well spotted and fair play to our 10), so your not being biased.
Second try - I think the decision was correct , but totally understandable that there are questions and I’ve seen those given as knock-one many many times.

What's your thinking of the 2nd one? Red tries catch ball, hand knocks it forwards, ball hits his calf, and bounces backwards into white, but still ahead of the place of red knock.
 

nimblehippo

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Lost forward and not regathered - knock on for me. I have never seen it refereed any different to that, the classic fumble forward that turns into the grubber has always been given as a knock on. Reaction of Louis R-Z said it all really - he never thought it was a try for a second.
 

Flish


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As soon as he touches the ball to try and gather (when it goes forward) he’s considered as in possession and could be tackled, therefore from that moment onwards if he doesn’t fully gather the ball it’s a knock on, the leg, it going backwards after, it touching the England player is a distraction. In possession, went forward => knock on
 

Pedro

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I don’t think it ever went forward, I think it went backwards into his leg, and then back again off his leg into the England player.
 

Camquin

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Ref asked Farrell to speak to his players. All he needs to do is shout, "Final warning discipline".
They do not need to discuss the weather in Porthcawl or who is buying the drinks.
And there is no general permission to bring on water carriers.
The non offending side always has the right to go quickly.

I was surprised Itoje did not see yellow for either the deliberate knock on or the repeated offending.

I would have given the knock on - on the grounds give what people expect.

What did we think about the ref in the Italy game giving the penalty for players in front of the kicker advancing without calling "hold"?
I assume this was discussed in the brief.
 

Zebra1922


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They do not need to discuss the weather in Porthcawl or who is buying the drinks.
And there is no general permission to bring on water carriers.
The non offending side always has the right to go quickly.

The non offending side does not have the right to go early when the referee has asked for a captain to talk to his players. I agree with points that water carriers should not have been on and the talking to by Farrell took too long, but here the referee should manage, tell England to get ready/reset then allow the penalty. Not allow the penalty then lie to the England captain that he gave enough time to reset.

Second try - knock on. It's very simple, locked forward by red. Does not matter what happens with the ball after that if red does not recover. Hits his calf, hits and England player before hitting the floor. It was knocked on first.

2 key decisions against England, however having got back to 24 all, England gave away too many penalties and dod not deserve to win from that point.
 

Flish


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I don’t think it ever went forward, I think it went backwards into his leg, and then back again off his leg into the England player.
Do you not think it came off his hand? I saw hand behind the body trying to gather, forward off hand onto leg?
 

Flish


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Best frame I could get, I think arm his behind him? 732AFD0D-BF7E-490B-B5B1-1C7A22AB2603.jpg
 

DocY


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Do you not think it came off his hand? I saw hand behind the body trying to gather, forward off hand onto leg?

His leg has nowt to do with it. It went forward off his hand and he didn’t gather it.

The only argument I can see for it not being a knock on is that he was in possession until it hit his calf. But I disagree with that. Never in possession for me.
 

Flish


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I mention his leg because it was in front of his hand, to hit his leg it had to go forward from his hand (some are debating it went forward), after that I agree with you, not gathered so knock on
 

Marc Wakeham


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I thought the two calls were shocking and 14 points that should not have been. That said was it last year or the year before welsh had to the ball first and official go for an England grounding. So, swings and roundabouts on one level but an interesting chat with the refs' head honcho for the To3.

More worrying for England was their discipline. Possible YC for Itoje. And terrible game management from 24-24 until the end of the game.

Felt that Farrell and Eddie Jones (together with AWJ and Pivac) handled the post match "interviews" well not geing goaded by the hack into speaking out of turn. Full marks to them.
 
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Flish


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I thought the two calles were shocking and 14 points that should not have been. That said was it last year or the year before welsh had to the ball first and official go for an England grounding. So, swings and roundabouts on one level but an interesting chat with the refs' head honcho for the To3.

More worrying for England was their discipline. Possible YC for Itoje. And terrible game management from 24-24 until the end of the game.

Felt that Farrell and Eddie Jones (together with AWJ and Pivac) handled the post match "interviews" well not geing goaded by the hack into speaking out of turn. Full marks to them.

Part of me (a small part!) is glad we lost by more than 14, so it mostly takes those two tries out of the equation, England lost that game on their own merit ultimately
 

Ian_Cook


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I don’t think it ever went forward, I think it went backwards into his leg, and then back again off his leg into the England player.

[LAWS]Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it
[/LAWS]

1. The red player knocks the ball forward

2. The red player never catches the ball

3. The ball does go backwards off the Red player's leg, but then first touches the ground clearly in front of where the red player first knocked the ball with his hand.

There is nothing in the law that states the ball going backwards off a player negates the fact that it was previously knocked forward.... "...a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm........ and the ball touches the ground"

For mine, the key issue is, was the place it first touched the ground "forward" of the place where it was first knocked by his hand....


It very clearly was, so IMO, this is a clear knock-on.

As for the first try, I am 50/50 as to whether or not it should have been allowed.

I guess its a lesson that professional rugby players need to have learned by this stage of their careers - the game is 80 minutes long, and you can't afford to snooze for any of it, not even a second.

Be alert! Your team needs more lerts!
 

Marc Wakeham


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Part of me (a small part!) is glad we lost by more than 14, so it mostly takes those two tries out of the equation, England lost that game on their own merit ultimately

The thing is with 20 to go it was 24 all, take those two tries away and it is 10-24. Totally diferent ball game. They were critical errors for me.

But yes playing what was in front of them England's discipline in the last 20 was awful.
 
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Pedro

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Ian, I don’t disagree with most of your assessment there. I watched the match live and saw the replays on tv- but haven’t gone back to watch it since, so I may be wrong- but I thought that the ball went backwards from the hands, hit the leg and went backwards again into an England player where it then went forward.
The ball ‘touched the ground or another player...’ behind where the ball was last handled by the Wales player and wasn’t knocked forward.
At least, that’s what the TMO implied.
 

Dickie E


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The logic that the ref has applied is that once Red 14 makes contact with the ball with his hand he doesn't then lose contact with the ball until after the ball hits his leg and goes backwards. He's effectively saying Red 14 caught the ball then drops it backwards.

Probably not how I would have called it.

Interestingly, it puts the ARs in potentially a tough spot when the ref asks "does anyone disagree?"
 

DocY


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[LAWS]

3. The ball does go backwards off the Red player's leg, but then first touches the ground clearly in front of where the red player first knocked the ball with his hand.

There is nothing in the law that states the ball going backwards off a player negates the fact that it was previously knocked forward.... "...a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm........ and the ball touches the ground"

For mine, the key issue is, was the place it first touched the ground "forward" of the place where it was first knocked by his hand....


It very clearly was, so IMO, this is a clear knock-on.


being pedantic, as you say above the ball going backwards off a player does not negate the first knock forward, so where the ball hits the ground doesn’t dictate whether it was an infringement or not. It could have hit his heel and gone 30 metres back before touching the ground and it’d still have been a knock on.
 

Balones

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1st try - technically nothing incorrect. I think from a management point of view it was simply a case of the referee being caught out by Biggars decision to kick diagonally rather than indicate and take a relatively easy shot at goal for three points. It’s not the first time, and won’t be the last, that a referee (and players?) is caught out by a player not doing what they expected them to do.

2nd try - I don’t think there’s any argument that the ball was initially knocked forward and never brought under control (or was it?) before it went back; having been hit back by the other hand which was in front of the first one. It was an ‘attempt’ to get it under control. - Not quite the same scenario but what would you call if at a knock forward the player was able to dive forward and knock it back into the hands of a supporting player and then they went on to score? Whether or not it touched the floor first by the scoring player.
Overall I don’t think there is a ‘correct’ answer but rather a matter of mindset and interpretation and on this occasion it went in favour of the team in red. The majority opinion would seem to be that the ‘knock-on’ would have been called and if this had happened then it would have been accepted at that moment.
 
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