Waratahs v chiefs

Old Pig

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Looking at the 1st ruck in this clip.
Blue 3 seems to infringe on a couple of counts.
  • Coming in from the side (not last feet)
  • Hands in ruck.
Surely the ball wasn’t out as the commentator is saying?

But even if it was out, then he comes from in front of last feet, so is offside.
 

Balones

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For a ball to be ’out’ it doesn’t have to be from the end of a ruck. It can come out from the side. In this case there was nobody over the ball to enable the ref to decide it was still ‘in’. There may be grounds to decide he came in from the side but it was marginal. He was onside when the ruck formed. It’s a case of deciding if he was on/offside when the ball came out/available.
 

Volun-selected


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Looks legit to me, but we (US) had a specific callout in our game management guidelines for ball out at the breakdown that “The ball is out when there are no bodies over the ball.” When black 3 powers in to clear the ruck just as his teammate gets pulled forward, 3 overshoots and the ball ends up exposed with no bodies over the ball, so the ball is now out. Blue starts from offside so all good.
 

chbg


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I don't often say this, but: what is the positive play? Let's get the ball moving.
 

crossref


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watching elite rugby all season, I am surprised that the ref thought that ball was out. I have seen countless like that where the ref shouts 'no no, not out' ...

Perhaps there is a change in approach happening? or perhaps just a one-off marginal call
 

tim White


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Elite rugby just confusing things again; The ball was still stuck under a foot of a legitimate ruck player (now off his feet) and that normally means the ball is still in. So side entry and hands in the ruck are legitimate appeals for me in this case.
 

Stu10

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Small margins... was 3's foot still over the ball as seen from the ref's angle?

I think it was out when the blue player picked it up, but I think it was still in at the moment blue moved forward from the offside line.

Also worth looking at whether blue 4 tripped the acting scrum-half, which gave the opportunity for blue to poach the ball!!!
 
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Locke


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Also worth looking at whether blue 4 tripped the acting scrum-half, which gave the opportunity for blue to poach the ball!!!
Oh wow, haha, good call out. I watched it several times in slow motion and I don’t see the feet touch but Blue 4 definitely grabs the back of his jersey and seems to throw him off balance as he’s getting up.
 

Zebra1922


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Elite rugby just confusing things again; The ball was still stuck under a foot of a legitimate ruck player (now off his feet) and that normally means the ball is still in. So side entry and hands in the ruck are legitimate appeals for me in this case.
If everyone is on the deck do we even still have a ruck? Maybe that’s why it was called out.
 

Old Pig

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From the ARU Game Management Guidelines 2022
Ball out and collapsed ruck
  • The ball is only out of a ruck (or scrum) when it is totally exposed, or it is clear of bodies.
  • Players cannot step through or over the middle of a collapsed ruck before the ball is cleared or the ball is completely clear of bodies. These players are unbound and in front of the last feet and are therefore offside.
To me, the ball wasn't completely clear of bodies. It was a collapsed ruck, so the Tahs have lost the right to contest the ball.

I've attached a still of the video below.
So even if you say the ball was out when he played it, he has definitely come from an offside position to do it.
Don't get me wrong, watching in real time, there's a lot going on for the ref to monitor here. Maybe the AR could pick it up, but the way bodies were flying around makes the blue offside line difficult to determine clearly.

1654549116586.png
 

Locke


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USA Rugby has used the same wording in the current GMGs. For this clip, it seems like the ruck ending comes down to the split second when the player’s leg/ankle/foot rolls off the ball?
 

Stu10

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From the ARU Game Management Guidelines 2022
Ball out and collapsed ruck
  • The ball is only out of a ruck (or scrum) when it is totally exposed, or it is clear of bodies.
  • Players cannot step through or over the middle of a collapsed ruck before the ball is cleared or the ball is completely clear of bodies. These players are unbound and in front of the last feet and are therefore offside.
To me, the ball wasn't completely clear of bodies. It was a collapsed ruck, so the Tahs have lost the right to contest the ball.

I've attached a still of the video below.
So even if you say the ball was out when he played it, he has definitely come from an offside position to do it.
Don't get me wrong, watching in real time, there's a lot going on for the ref to monitor here. Maybe the AR could pick it up, but the way bodies were flying around makes the blue offside line difficult to determine clearly.
For a collapsed ruck such as this, the defending team can no longer counter-ruck, correct? Am I correct in thinking the possible outcomes are covered by Laws 15. 17-19... either the team in possession plays the ball away, the ball rolls out, or a scrum turnover.
 

tim White


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If everyone is on the deck do we even still have a ruck? Maybe that’s why it was called out.
Elite rugby play as if prone players are part of the ruck when some players are on their feet, does this change when all players are off their feet?
 
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