Was white ...tackling red ...OR ...was white deliberately knocking the ball from red

[Browner]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L--gsidb7rU

Incident at 0.50s ......to 0.55s

[LAWS]. If a player in tackling an opponent makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward from the ball carriers hands, that is a knock on.

If a player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent's hands and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier's hands, that is not a knock on. [/LAWS]

Which applies?, judgement required, see the Poll
Xx

 

[crossref]

great clip.

my instinct is that really harsh on the defenders.

In a regular game with no TMO I am sure that all thirty players - and the the ref - would say that was lost forwards

but by the letter - perhaps the deicsion was technically correct.

 

[Toby Warren]

IN the weeds that's a KO - if you're good enough to have a TMO let them worry about it

 

[RobLev]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L--gsidb7rU

Incident at 0.50s ......to 0.55s

[LAWS]. If a player in tackling an opponent makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward from the ball carriers hands, that is a knock on.

If a player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent's hands and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier's hands, that is not a knock on. [/LAWS]

Which applies?, judgement required, see the Poll
Xx

That's not an either/or question.

My answer is quite possibly both; the ball is (for me) clearly deliberately targeted by the defender - but I'd accept that he was also trying to tackle the attacker.

And another thing - the commentators don't know the relevant ruling; wottasurprise...

 

[Toby Warren]

If it goes dead - penalty try?

 

[crossref]

If it goes dead - penalty try?

no - he wasn't trying to knock it dead, just out of the bc hands.

 

[Dixie]

OK - I watched it with the sound muted, and as I write this I do not know what was decided.

The two angles shown give different perspectives. From the camera behind and to the left, White 11 is cornerflagging as expected, and can only make a despairing effort. That effort appears to be a one-handed grab for the Red player's upper arm near the point of the shoulder - an effort that he fails to sustain, as his momentum pulls him beyond the white player. In his final moments of contact, he attempts to pulll Red's arm back in an effort to dislodge the ball.

From the angle to the front and right, we see that White 11's initial contact hits and dislodges the ball - the hit being downwards rather than backwards. We then see that White 11 continues his effort to rip the Red player's arm backwards - in other words, he is unaware that the ball has been dislodged.

This, taken in conjunction with the Red player's dejection at having lost control of the ball, leads me to conclude that the ball was knocked on in the tackle. I'd guess from the use of the word "Try" in the heading of the description of the video that the TMO ruled that the ball was knocked backwards by the defender. I don't think I'd criticise that decision - it's a tough call, and perhaps the elite boys give the benefit of the doubt to the attack.

 

[Browner]

That's not an either/or question.

Yes it is Roblev, because as a TMO you can't adjudicate 'both' otherwise its a Law stalemate..... To continue the match you have to decide on the incident and then apply the 1\2014 clarification, one way or the other.

 

[RobLev]

Yes it is Roblev, because as a TMO you can't adjudicate 'both' otherwise its a Law stalemate..... To continue the match you have to decide on the incident and then apply the 1\2014 clarification, one way or the other.

Unless as a referee you have a clarification of the clarification - no, it isn't. There is nothing in the clarification itself which says that a deliberate strip in the course of a tackle is treated any differently to a deliberate strip otherwise than in the course of a tackle. It is whether it is deliberate that matters.

 

[illinois rugger]

Looks like straightforward knock on by the red player to me so a white scrum at 5 meters out

Didn't the Laws people say the refs got this one wrong?

 

[RobLev]

Looks like straightforward knock on by the red player to me so a white scrum at 5 meters out

Didn't the Laws people say the refs got this one wrong?

No, it wasn't this incident.

See:
http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?dom...ification=1001

"Was the rip/strip deliberate?" is the issue.

 

[illinois rugger]

No, it wasn't this incident.

See:
http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?dom...ification=1001

"Was the rip/strip deliberate?" is the issue.

Alrighty, I see the white player try to tackle by putting an arm over the shoulder of the red runner and his hand hit the ball as he did that. Stuff like that happens in tackles sometimes. Then red guy didn't keep hold the ball which then went forward. So, as I said, knock on by red.


Poll don't say nothing about stripping the ball.

 

[Browner]

Unless as a referee you have a clarification oHenze deliberately knocking the ball" clarification - no, it isn't. There is nothing in the clarification itself which says that a deliberate strip in the course of a tackle is treated any differently to a deliberate strip otherwise than in the course of a tackle. It is whether it is deliberate that matters.

Deliberate is one of the criteria, knocking the ball is the other, hense the combined wording that says " deliberately knocks the ball"

 

[RobLev]

Deliberate is one of the criteria, knocking the ball is the other, hense the combined wording that says " deliberately knocks the ball"

With the slight amendment that the second criterion in full is:

[LAWS]...rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent's hands...[/LAWS]

I entirely agree. And unless you are saying it is impossible to rip the ball or deliberately knock it from an opponent's hands while at the same time tackling him, the two choices in the poll are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Taff]

great clip. my instinct is that really harsh on the defenders. In a regular game with no TMO I am sure that all thirty players - and the the ref - would say that was lost forwards. but by the letter - perhaps the deicsion was technically correct.

For what it's worth, that's exactly how I see it.

 

[RobLev]

Alrighty, I see the white player try to tackle by putting an arm over the shoulder of the red runner and his hand hit the ball as he did that. Stuff like that happens in tackles sometimes. Then red guy didn't keep hold the ball which then went forward. So, as I said, knock on by red.

Whereas I saw the white player making a deliberate attempt to knock the ball from rred's hands - as did the referee and TMO, as it happens. There's room for different views on it though.

Poll don't say nothing about stripping the ball.

True; but (unless you feel that rip or strip can be non-intentional) rip/strip/knock are bundled together in the clarification.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I don't think you can say that white deliberately knocked the ball forward, for me he was trying tho tackle the arm of the ball carrier with the hope of dislodging the ball but hit the ball.no answer, reall 50/50 but Knock on at my level and full speed

 

[chbg]

I don't believe that even top class players would aim to hit the side of one end of the ball into the BC's body in order to knock the ball out of the BC's grasp. You would normally aim to hit it directly on end to 'squeeze' it out. He was going for the weakest, closest part of the BC's body in what should have been a vain tackle attempt, but showing that he had tried. (Cynical, no not me; but I know what I have done in the past). Basically the BC did not have a firm enough control of the ball.

But the Clarification needs further clarification to avoid everlasting attempted dissection of its true meaning.

 

[Browner]

I don't believe that even top class players would aim to hit the side of one end of the ball into the BC's body in order to knock the ball out of the BC's grasp. You would normally aim to hit it directly on end to 'squeeze' it out. He was going for the weakest, closest part of the BC's body in what should have been a vain tackle attempt, but showing that he had tried. (Cynical, no not me; but I know what I have done in the past). Basically the BC did not have a firm enough control of the ball.

But the Clarification needs further clarification to avoid everlasting attempted dissection of its true meaning.

In accepting your view, I think you underestimate the skill / decisions speed of elite players , especially in the desperation/last ditch area of very near to their own try line.

I can assure you that punching the ball as an act of deliberate desperation isn't confined to modern era pros .... Its long been practice's (albeit with varying degrees of success!)

 

[chbg]

I can assure you that punching the ball as an act of deliberate desperation isn't confined to modern era pros .... Its long been practice's (albeit with varying degrees of success!)

Agreed - I am probably over-analysing HOW he hit the ball. But isn't that why we are looking at the video in minute detail?