What can WR do about Red Cards ruining games for the fans?

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I have been thinking long and hard about this problem for some time now. I think I have the basis for a solution that keeps the discipline, keeps the sanctions for the really serious offenders, but allows the referees more latitude in dealing with infringers fairly. I know this is never likely to be adopted or taken seriously by WR, but this is a discussion forum, so here goes.

The first thing is that IMO Rugby Union has a big problem with on field sanctions. You have PK, YC and RC. The disparity between YC and RC is huge, you can get the same sanction for infringements as wide apart as mistiming contact with a jumping player (as we saw in the NZ v France game) and biting an opponents ear off or kicking his head into next Wednesday...there is nothing in between, and the earlier a RC given, the bigger the impact it has on the game. Its all very well saying, "well the player will get his punishment in the judiciary", but how is that fair on the rest of the players and the fans?

IMO, the Foul Play Law needs to be re-organised to separate certain types of serious foul play from other less serious types. The overall Law (now Law 9 under the 2018 Laws) should be called Foul Play, and there should be three sections;

Intentional Foul Play
Dangerous Play
Unfair Play.

Also, while we keep the existing yellow and red sanction cards, we introduce a black card. The rationale behind this will be explained soon

Black Card: The player is sent from the field and is not replaced. This type of card is an automatic citing.

Red Card: The player is sent from the field for the rest of the game, but he may be replaced with another player after 10 minutes has expired. The replacement of that player costs the infringing team one of their replacements; if are there are no more replacements, the team plays one short. A Red Card is an automatic citing.

Yellow Card: Maximum 10 minute suspension from the game. The same player (or a replacement player) may come back onto the field when the 10 minutes expires. However, if the opposing team scores a try, the player may return to the field even if time has not expired (this does not apply to the red card)

Intentional Foul Play:
- All offences where the player intentionally strikes or assaults an opponent or an official
- This would be infringements such as striking, kicking, punching, biting, stomping, bag-snatching, eye-gouging, and intentional Dangerous Play.
- Intentional Foul Play would be the only category in which you can be given a black card.

Dangerous Play:

- All offences that occur in the normal course of play, where the infringer acts negligently or recklessly (but not intentionally) with potential to cause injury to an opponent.
- This would be infringements such as high tackle, early tackle, late tackle, tackling or playing an opponent without the ball, tackling or playing an opponent in the air, collapsing a ruck, maul or scrum, shoulder charge, no-wrap/no-arms tackle, tip tackles and kicking the ball out of the ball-carrier's hands.
- Dangerous Play, if serious, could result in a Yellow Card, and if serious enough could result in a Red Card,
- The referee can still show you a Black Card if he decides that your act of Dangerous Play was intentional.

Unfair Play:
-
All infringements that are technical in nature with no risk of injury to an opponent
- This would be infringements such as intentional knock-forward, obstruction, knocking the ball into touch, touch in goal or over the dead ball line, simulation, time wasting, repeated infringing and misconduct.
- Unfair play, if intentional could result in a yellow card. A second yellow card offence would result in a red card.

I know there will be objections from some "its too complicated" or "just what we need, more Law changes" but I also know that you those "some" are often the ones who whinge longest and loudest about the way the Laws are now, so don't complain when someone is willing to offer suggestions as to what to do about it.

If you have some constructive and/or positive contributions or suggestions to make, feel free to have at it.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,052
Post Likes
1,785
Seems worthy of a decent (ie at least a year) trial at a suitable high level - seeing as on the wyhole its at the higher levels that it is perceived (by me?) the issues really lay.

didds
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,809
Post Likes
3,146
I think there are some interesting ideas there
But too many to implement all in one go, you need to work out an implementation sequence
 

BikingBud


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
718
Post Likes
259
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I suppose the real issue is are we trying to ensure a spectacle or a safe, fair and equitable application of the laws? I think sometimes there is a massive rift between those 3 considerations and the ref applying the laws firmly often find that they are accused of having little empathy and spoiling the game.

Your idea seems to have some merit but some of your dangerous play:

"early tackle, late tackle, tackling or playing an opponent without the ball,"

can be seen as gamesmanship and unfair play rather than dangerous, but given the potential outcome of a yellow that may not be worth discussing and trying to pigeon hole everything. Also the term striking can cover a very broad range of scenarios.

Interesting thought about the power play, works in other sports but would there be a limit on the number off the field. I think it was Johnners that once suggested to a ref "they can play with 13, can't they?"

So in terms of your question the Red card is a consequence that comes from player actions and decisions. Yes the application of sanctions, and level of tolerance between refs from different backgrounds and nations does lead to inconsistencies in treatment of foul play. And as long as there are differing perspectives and human actors assessing human actions those inconsistencies will remain but isn't all that part of the beauty of sport. It is not science or formulaic.
 

L'irlandais

, Promises to Referee in France
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
4,724
Post Likes
325
The French have un carton blanc (a white card). I am not sure it serves the same purpose as that in Super rugby.
The white card is for repeated poor technique (in front row for example bringing down the scrum unintentionally). The guilty player can be temporarily suspended, but the exclusion not noted on the match report at all, as a YC or RC would have to be. No notion of two White Cards and you're off definitively.
 

VM75

Player or Coach
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
442
Post Likes
92
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Fans don't really give a flying fig about opponent players safety, you've only got to observe the celebratory way that huge & often illegal hits are dismissed as features of the sport & then promoted on social media & various [irresponsibly sometimes] sites

If you dilute the consequences to the offender, you are by actually encouraging the foul play, this code is tough enough without doing so.

The increase in RC is because players [and coaches] AREN'T changing their approach to contact as per WR concussion reduction programme started by in Late 2016.

This sport has a 'duty' to protect players & children that sits way higher than the duty to keep players on the pitch to appease fans.
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
717
Post Likes
233
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I see nothing wrong with there current system. If player don't want games 'ruined', don't commute RC offences.

I don't see why a RC ruins the game for fans either, yes it clearly gives one team an advantage, but this does not always ruin a game.

No issues from me, crack on with current rules and let's have players taking responsibility for their actions.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
The increase in RC is because players [and coaches] AREN'T changing their approach to contact as per WR concussion reduction programme started by in Late 2016.

I disagree. IMO, the increase is down to only one thing... the lowering of the standard of seriousness required for a the issuance of a RC

Before the introduction of cards, sending offs were very, very rare, and any player who was sent off almost certainly had committed an act of egregious violence against an opponent; a kick in the head, punch in the face. Now you can get a RC for a mistimed tackle, or even for twice committing offences such as intentionally knocking the ball on. As Fred Howard once said "If you find your finger pointing to the dressing room, you know it was a sending off offence"

I would like to see the game return to only sending players off and making a team play one short for committing infringements of that nature. For other infringements that don't meet this "intentional assault" test, punish the player but not his team.

Looks like former England international Ben Kay is thinking along similar lines

Ben Kay‏Verified account @BenKay5
I want @WorldRugby to bring in an orange card for unintentional - 10 minute sin bin and that player then cannot return - has to be substituted & can still be banned for future games - punish the player not the game/fans
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
717
Post Likes
233
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I disagree. IMO, the increase is down to only one thing... the lowering of the standard of seriousness required for a the issuance of a RC

And I am all for this. Look at some games from the 80's and 90's.Would you be happy with what player got away with back then? Stamps to joints, punches with no sanction, deliberate high tackles with not meaningful sanction?

I an glad the bar has been lowered and if players cannot adjust referees should not be blamed.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
And I am all for this. Look at some games from the 80's and 90's.Would you be happy with what player got away with back then? Stamps to joints, punches with no sanction, deliberate high tackles with not meaningful sanction?

I an glad the bar has been lowered and if players cannot adjust referees should not be blamed.

First, I'm not blaming the referees, I'm blaming the Laws (and stupid Suits at WR that make them).

Second, my problem is that the bar has been lowered too far. You can now get sent off for an accident, or due to the recklessness of an opponent.

There was player RC last year (?) in Super Rugby. He was approaching a kicked ball coming down. As his opponent jumped, he realised he wasn't going to make it, and tried to bale out. His feet slipped on the wet ground (he left two long skidmarks) and as he tried to go under the player who was coming down, his body hit the jumper and flipped him over.

Sent off due to ground conditions.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,119
Post Likes
2,137
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Yellow Card: However, if the opposing team scores a try, the player may return to the field even if time has not expired

Ian, can you explain why you see this as worthwhile please - just seems to be an added complication.

You could also have the very possible situation where a player commits yellow card FP leading up to a try. What would happen then as offence occurs seconds before a try?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,052
Post Likes
1,785
Is read that to mean the gf only ends up being proposed by one score, not three or four...by which time the game is effectively finished.
In the PT example it's clear to me the gf means until the next try with only 14 men on the pitch.

Worth trialling imo
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,778
Post Likes
842
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I like the "orange card" Idea. I'd kee Yellow and red as they are rather than move red to black that bit in just not needed. But the principle of a "middle" sanction is good.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,809
Post Likes
3,146
I have a feeling that WR will actually DO is :
RC = 10 mins off , and then a replacement comes on.
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
I see nothing wrong with there current system. If player don't want games 'ruined', don't commute RC offences.

I vehemently disagree with this and think that this is the root of the problem.

The threshold for red cards has been lowered such that you can be sent off for accidents. It's no good saying "you shouldn't have done it" when the player had no intention of doing it in the first place!
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,778
Post Likes
842
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
There are, indeed, two ways to come at this:

!: Change the card systen as indicated above. (the colour of the cards is a detail that is not important at this point)

2: Stop the forcing of judgement. I.e. stop telling refs "in X situation you must issue red". All that this has achieved is that some ref (NZ Vs France T2) are following orders and beign hung out to dry. Other refs are ignoring the compulsory sanction and hiding behind the "I did not see it" line (RWC 2011 were most referees did not follow the "tip" ruling and thus causing more grief for Rolland who DID follow the process). Let a referee judge an offence in context as we do for most offences.

At the top most if not all the refs are capable of applying the "you know when it's red" rule. Thety don't need to have WR tie their arms behind their back.

I'm sure if we did introduce the Y/O/R systen the French red would have been an Orange. Let the CO look at it after and he can say Nope that is being upgraded to a full red or nope it was Orange and a "tot up" points system could apply (eg 10 Orange point see a 2 match ban) or even "it was just yellow". The game has not unduely sufferred and justice is not avoided.
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
At the top most if not all the refs are capable of applying the "you know when it's red" rule. Thety don't need to have WR tie their arms behind their back.

I think it depends what you mean by "the top". If you're looking at the very top (i.e. the top few in the world, who give very few red cards) I think you're largely right, but much below that and there are some very 'disappointing' decisions (though maybe that's just because they disagree with me!)

But I agree with the principle - the "this is always red" line is damaging. As you say, it stops the referee judging the situation.
 
Top