[7's/10's] What is the definition of the playing a ball in the scrum?

Blindside

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When is the scrum over with regards to the 9 playing the ball, is it when he touches it, or like a ruck when he picks it up. Law 19 states its when he plays the ball, but what is the definition of playing it? (edit, sorry missed out "9"in title question)
 
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Jarrod Burton


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[LAWS]36.
  • The scrum ends:
    • When the ball comes out of the scrum in any direction except the tunnel.
    • When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half.
    • When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.
    • When the referee blows the whistle for an infringement.
    • When the ball in a scrum is on or over the goal line
[/LAWS]
I always take it the same as a ruck, clear of the scrum is good to go.

If a scrum has stopped/stalled, the ball is won and its clear that its not coming out I'll let a 9 dig and pick up the ball but my pre-match says grab it and get it out - don't hold it in.
 

Dickie E


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I always take it the same as a ruck, clear of the scrum is good to go.

well, yes, but I think the thrust of the OP relates to "played by that team's scrum-half". So if he sticks his boot in to try to dislodge the ball from a log-jam, is the scrum over as soon as he makes contact? The law seems to suggest so.

Here's how it is defined in the good book:

[LAWS]Played: The ball is played when it is intentionally touched by a player. [/LAWS]
 

Blindside

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So basically, if the 9 touches the ball he has played it, and is fair game. In a ruck its when the ball leaves the ground but that "curtosy" is not applicable when the 9 is clearing the scrum?
 

Jarrod Burton


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well, yes, but I think the thrust of the OP relates to "played by that team's scrum-half". So if he sticks his boot in to try to dislodge the ball from a log-jam, is the scrum over as soon as he makes contact? The law seems to suggest so.

Here's how it is defined in the good book:

[LAWS]Played: The ball is played when it is intentionally touched by a player. [/LAWS]

Then as the 9 I'd let the ball sit there in the scrum if I couldn't easily reach it and make the referee deal with any delay. We've won the scrum so we'll get the feed if it becomes unplayable right?
 

Dickie E


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So basically, if the 9 touches the ball he has played it, and is fair game. In a ruck its when the ball leaves the ground but that "curtosy" is not applicable when the 9 is clearing the scrum?

well, law 15 tells us:

[LAWS]Ending a ruck
The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line. [/LAWS]

So to me that means all of the ball must be outside all of the body parts in the ruck. Nothing about ball off ground, etc

But that doesn't help us with the scrum, does it?

In reality, I manage the scrums as per the ruck requirement (ie ball completely clear of and beyond #8's feet). I think it is unsafe for 70kg scrum half to be poleaxed by a 90kg flanker while the scrum half is in an unprotected & vulnerable position trying to dig the ball out. If I think the scrum half is taking too long, I'll manage that.
 

Jarrod Burton


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[LAWS]36.
  • The scrum ends:
    • When the ball comes out of the scrum in any direction except the tunnel.
    • When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half.
    • When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.
    • When the referee blows the whistle for an infringement.
    • When the ball in a scrum is on or over the goal line
[/LAWS]
I always take it the same as a ruck, clear of the scrum is good to go.

If a scrum has stopped/stalled, the ball is won and its clear that its not coming out I'll let a 9 dig and pick up the ball but my pre-match says grab it and get it out - don't hold it in.

As ever the laws are inconsistent. The 8/rearmost player is required to pick the ball up to end a scrum, but a 9 only has to touch it.

It might be a long day of looking at screens but I can't see that a non-feeding scrum half is required to be present to form a scrum. What if the scrum-half and 8 decide to swap? Can the scrum half playing in the 8 position then reach in and pick it up or can he still only touch it?
 

Jarrod Burton


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well, law 15 tells us:

[LAWS]Ending a ruck
The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line. [/LAWS]

So to me that means all of the ball must be outside all of the body parts in the ruck. Nothing about ball off ground, etc

But that doesn't help us with the scrum, does it?

In reality, I manage the scrums as per the ruck requirement (ie ball completely clear of and beyond #8's feet). I think it is unsafe for 70kg scrum half to be poleaxed by a 90kg flanker while the scrum half is in an unprotected & vulnerable position trying to dig the ball out. If I think the scrum half is taking too long, I'll manage that.

I'd agree with that sentiment - with some exceptions depending on how much "advice" I'd been getting from the 9....
 

Blindside

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So according to the law the scrum is over when the 9 (plays) touches the ball. However, in "reality" most referees would probably allow the ball to remain the offside line for the 9 until the ball is extracted the ball from the scrum as long as it was without delay and his actions were positive in relation to getting the game flowing. I can see that the difference is small but the it can be a keenly competitive area, particulary at the Jnr age grades as the understanding between the 8 and 9 and their skill levels are developing.
 

OB..


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My society's view is that the ball is out when the scum half has lifted it clear. He is not allowed to handle the ball in the scrum otherwise, and must not delay when lifting clear.

This appears to be the case at the top levels as well.
 

Dickie E


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What does "lifted it clear" mean?

Specifically, does "clear" mean clear of the ground or clear of the scrum/ruck?
 
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Jarrod Burton


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What does "lifted it clear" mean?

Specifically, does "clear" mean clear of the ground or clear of the scrum/ruck?

Lifted out for mine along the same lines as a ruck, if a bird could sh*t on it and its off the ground then its out.
 

OB..


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What does "lifted it clear" mean?

Specifically, does "clear" mean clear of the ground or clear of the scrum/ruck?

Clear of the scrum/ruck ie so that the scrum half can kick or pass
 

Dickie E


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Clear of the scrum/ruck ie so that the scrum half can kick or pass

that's how I do it too but it does trouble me a bit that the scrum law says something quite different
 

didds

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Lifted out for mine along the same lines as a ruck, if a bird could sh*t on it and its off the ground then its out.

So this, 1 cm off the ground is game for the picking scrumhalf to get clobbered by the oppo ?


2.jpg
 

Ciaran Trainor


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I had a good debate with an experienced No.8 a few weeks ago in a lower level game.
His scrum was going backwards so was regularly trying to pick up and complained that the scrum half can't tackle him when he is dragging the ball clear with one hand.
I said initially "but you are not bound so technically in possession" so fair game as the ball is effectively out if you are playing it with your hand.
Very grey area but on the day we agreed that the ball had to be clearly in his hands and off the ground before the 9 could play him.
 

tim White

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Did we all not get clear guidance on this at the Ruck a few years back?

Lifted and clear of the legs so it could be passed either way. Give the benefit of the doubt to the 'lifter' or we'll never get the game moving again.
 

chbg


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So this, 1 cm off the ground is game for the picking scrumhalf to get clobbered by the oppo ?


View attachment 4270

The oppo may start the movement that would result in the SH being clobbered if he still had the ball at that stage.
 
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