[7's/10's] What is the definition of the playing a ball in the scrum?

didds

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Is that any different for a ruck?

No.

I was respondoing to the phrase ", if a bird could sh*t on it and its off the ground then its out."

clearlya bird could shit on the ball in my diagram. And if its 1cm off the ground its lifted.

So given a bird can shit on it and it is off the ground can the scrumhalf be mullered ?

didds
 

Marc Wakeham


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I had a good debate with an experienced No.8 a few weeks ago in a lower level game.
His scrum was going backwards so was regularly trying to pick up and complained that the scrum half can't tackle him when he is dragging the ball clear with one hand.
I said initially "but you are not bound so technically in possession" so fair game as the ball is effectively out if you are playing it with your hand.
Very grey area but on the day we agreed that the ball had to be clearly in his hands and off the ground before the 9 could play him.

Why do you say the bold bit?
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Why do you say the bold bit?
Just my thought process that if the no8 is not bound, the ball is out therefore he could be tackled as initially my thought process was dragging the ball back with your hand means you are in possession.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Just my thought process that if the no8 is not bound, the ball is out therefore he could be tackled as initially my thought process was dragging the ball back with your hand means you are in possession.

The 8 only has to bind with one arm. Law 19.7.d. So, how is he not bound?
 

Dickie E


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Just my thought process that if the no8 is not bound, the ball is out therefore he could be tackled as initially my thought process was dragging the ball back with your hand means you are in possession.

I would have to see it. The law allows the #8 to break for the sole purpose of picking the ball up. I wouldn't allow a #8 to be bound with 1 arm while dragging the ball back with the other hand. Obviously a dynamic situation if his pack is going backwards at the time.
 

Jarrod Burton


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No.

I was respondoing to the phrase ", if a bird could sh*t on it and its off the ground then its out."

clearlya bird could shit on the ball in my diagram. And if its 1cm off the ground its lifted.

So given a bird can shit on it and it is off the ground can the scrumhalf be mullered ?

didds

In my book, yep.
 

Jarrod Burton


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thats fine - i was genuinely interested.

Does evferybody esle here agree?

I'd also note that in the majority of scrums with the 8 on their feet there likely wouldn't be the same sort of picture as you might see in a ruck. Also their 6/7 should be doing their job and making it harder for the oppo 9 to legally reach the 9 in time by making the pocket bigger than normal. Hard to describe what I'm trying to outline.
 

OB..


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The bird shit argument is crap. A better way of putting it is to imagine a cord/elastic band round the extremities of the ruck/scrum. The ball has to be outside that to be "out". We allow the scrum half to pick the ball up before it is out provided he uses it as soon as he lifts it. out.
 

Dickie E


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The bird shit argument is crap.

OB.., unless you are attempting humour with the shit & crap usage, describing a fellow referee's views as crap is not very nice.

Remember too that law 19 tells us:

[LAWS]The scrum ends:
When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half. [/LAWS]

so Jarrod's interpretation is closer to law than your Society's
 
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OB..


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OB.., unless you are attempting humour with the shit & crap usage, describing a fellow referee's views as crap is not very nice.

Remember too that law 19 tells us:

[LAWS]The scrum ends:
When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half. [/LAWS]

so Jarrod's interpretation is closer to law than your Society's

I'm sorry you didn't like my attempt at humour, but for years I have been pointing out that the bird shit rule is wrong: it is perfectly possible for the ball to be between the #8's feet and just forward of them without actually being outside the limits of the scrum and yet clearly visible from vertically above.

As for the scrum ending when the ball is "played by the scrum half" I would point out the definition of "played"
[LAWS]Played: The ball is played when it is intentionally touched by a player.[/LAWS]

We regularly see the ball being moved back by the scrum half's foot prior to a box kick. This implies that touching only applies to use of the hands.

The laws are not written to the standards of parliamentary draughtsmen, but for ordinary people, which means we have to make sensible compromises rather than legal arguments.
 

didds

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the bird shit argument is crap. A better way of putting it is to imagine a cord/elastic band round the extremities of the ruck/scrum. The ball has to be outside that to be "out". We allow the scrum half to pick the ball up before it is out provided he uses it as soon as he lifts it. Out.

big like.
 

Blindside

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My society's view is that the ball is out when the scum half has lifted it clear. He is not allowed to handle the ball in the scrum otherwise, and must not delay when lifting clear.

This appears to be the case at the top levels as well.



So if he momentarilyt touchedthe ball (no knock on) in an attempt to lift it clear and the ball remained in the scrum, would the scrum be over or would he be penalized for touching the ball in the scrum?
 

Dickie E


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The laws are not written to the standards of parliamentary draughtsmen, but for ordinary people, which means we have to make sensible compromises rather than legal arguments.

But of course the issue is that your "sensible compromise" may be very different to someone else's (case in point, Jarrod's "sensible compromise" is the bird shit rule).

And the law writers have already used sensible words in law 15:

[LAWS]The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line. [/LAWS]

How hard would it have been to replace the word "ruck" with "scrum" and use it in law 19?

In fact, given they chose to use different words in laws 15 & 19, I wonder if they are doing so deliberately (perhaps to put a greater burden on the SH at the end of a scrum)?
 
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Dickie E


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So if he momentarilyt touchedthe ball (no knock on) in an attempt to lift it clear and the ball remained in the scrum, would the scrum be over or would he be penalized for touching the ball in the scrum?

Hard to see that not being a knock on, but (assuming he's not trying to milk an offside) for me I'd tell the opposition to hold their ground and let him have another go
 

OB..


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But of course the issue is that your "sensible compromise" may be very different to someone else's (case in point, Jarrod's "sensible compromise" is the bird shit rule).[...]

I don't see the birdshit rule as a sensible compromise. I see it as categorically wrong, as I have explained ad nauseam.
 

Stu10

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I would have to see it. The law allows the #8 to break for the sole purpose of picking the ball up. I wouldn't allow a #8 to be bound with 1 arm while dragging the ball back with the other hand. Obviously a dynamic situation if his pack is going backwards at the time.

The laws state that the scrum is over when "c. When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player."... In my experience the number 8 typically picks up with one hand while his other arm is still in a bound position.

When you say dragging the ball back, do you mean a helping hand to get the ball to the back foot for the scrum half (definitely not allowed)?
 

didds

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meanwhile Ive just noticed that this is in the 7s/10s section of the foirums ... and ther is no number 8 in 7s/10s

:D

didds
 

Dickie E


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The laws state that the scrum is over when "c. When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player."... In my experience the number 8 typically picks up with one hand while his other arm is still in a bound position.

what does the #8 do then? If he continues to trundle forward with ball under one arm and remaining bound, that is not legal.
 
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