[7's/10's] What is the definition of the playing a ball in the scrum?

tim White

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No, the ref calls "USE IT" and we get on with rugby.
 

tim White

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The ref could also shout "HE'S PICKED IT UP, THE BALL IS OUT" and then stand back to watch the fun. You pick it up= scrum over!

I would prefer a clarification with both 8s and 9s after the first occasion if this ever happened -"This is the way we are going to play it from now on-" See a problem? -solve a problem!. It's what we call managing the game rather than just blowing the whistle (or not).

Note; Spotting the problem in the first place is usually the biggest problem of all.:wtf:
 

Dickie E


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No, the ref calls "USE IT" and we get on with rugby.

Gee, I've never seen or heard of such a thing. Is this common in England?

Just so I'm clear:
1. #8 stays bound with 1 arm and picks up ball with other
2. scrum remains static until ref loses patience at which time ref calls "use it". #8 then has 5 seconds to use it

What happens if scrum moves forward? Does ref wait til it stops moving a 2nd time like a maul?
 

chbg


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Gee, I've never seen or heard of such a thing. Is this common in England?

Just so I'm clear:
1. #8 stays bound with 1 arm and picks up ball with other
2. scrum remains static until ref loses patience at which time ref calls "use it". #8 then has 5 seconds to use it

What happens if scrum moves forward? Does ref wait til it stops moving a 2nd time like a maul?

No: under Law 19.26 (confusingly) the referee calls 'use it' after it has been available for 3-5 secs, and the ball must be played out of the scrum immediately.
 

Dickie E


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No: under Law 19.26 (confusingly) the referee calls 'use it' after it has been available for 3-5 secs, and the ball must be played out of the scrum immediately.

Well, 19.26 says this (bold is mine) and, IMO, is solely to stop the SH winding down the clock. I don't see it as a way get the #8 to play the ball. Again, is this a common interpretation in UK?

[LAWS]When the scrum is stationary and the ball has been available at the back of the scrum for three-five seconds, the referee calls “use it”. The team must then play the ball out of the scrum immediately.[/LAWS]
 

Phil E


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Newsflash...

If the No 8 picks up the ball the scrum is over.

[LAWS]ENDING A SCRUM

36. The scrum ends :

b. When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half.
c. When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.[/LAWS]
 

Dickie E


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Newsflash...

If the No 8 picks up the ball the scrum is over.

Phil, are you aware of this practice of a #8 staying bound with 1 arm while picking up the ball with the other? If so, do you call "ball's out" when it happens or penalise the #8 for hand in the scrum or something else?
 

Phil E


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Phil, are you aware of this practice of a #8 staying bound with 1 arm while picking up the ball with the other? If so, do you call "ball's out" when it happens or penalise the #8 for hand in the scrum or something else?

Not something I see to be honest, the 8 usually either picks up the ball and goes, or fails to pick it up under pressure and we get a knock on or a turnover.

Can't answer that without seeing it as every situation is different, but my instinct would be to call it out first time and warn the 8 that if he does it again its a PK for handling in the scrum....or obstruction if he rebinds.
 

didds

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Newsflash...

If the No 8 picks up the ball the scrum is over.

[LAWS]ENDING A SCRUM

36. The scrum ends :

b. When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half.
c. When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.[/LAWS]

I read the issue being debated is not when the above occurs with the #8 totally unbinding, but when the #8 is still bound with one arm and picks up.

Frankly that has to be a PK/FK (or FK or whatever it is) in my book, but appreciate others milega emay vary.

If it IS to be permitted how long may the #8 remain bound with one arm, ball in the other hand?

didds
 

Phil E


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I read the issue being debated is not when the above occurs with the #8 totally unbinding, but when the #8 is still bound with one arm and picks up.

Frankly that has to be a PK/FK (or FK or whatever it is) in my book, but appreciate others milega emay vary.

If it IS to be permitted how long may the #8 remain bound with one arm, ball in the other hand?

didds

If he is still bound then it's not permitted and "Use it" wouldn't be one of the options I was looking at.

For me "use it" is only for when the scrum isn't moving and the ball is at 8's feet. Not for when he picks it up, which ends the scrum, bound or not.

[LAWS]When the scrum is stationary and the ball has been available at the back of the scrum for three-five seconds, the referee calls “use it”. The team must then play the ball out of the scrum immediately. Sanction : Scrum.[/LAWS]
 

didds

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If he is still bound then it's not permitted and "Use it" wouldn't be one of the options I was looking at.

For me "use it" is only for when the scrum isn't moving and the ball is at 8's feet. Not for when he picks it up, which ends the scrum, bound or not.

"Like"
 

tim White

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Can I just say your 'Use it' is technically correct but at my level I want them to use it. At higher levels a Penalty should get the right response at following scrums.
 

Dickie E


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Can I just say your 'Use it' is technically correct but at my level I want them to use it. At higher levels a Penalty should get the right response at following scrums.

so what restrictions do you put on the opposition at this time? ie is the scrum over so the ball carrying, partially bound #8 can be tackled or not?
 

Volun-selected


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Like most here I've ref'd this as once the ball is off the ground and clear of bodies the scrum is over and game on.

But, quick question to the laws as written. (For 7s/10s it seems that the "feet of the hindmost player" is dropped so focus is on the "played by that team's scrum-half" part.)

As noted, in the strictest sense of the laws as written when the SH touches the ball it is "played" and the scrum is over. Could this be used to convert the scrum directly into a ruck?

I'm probably still too pre-caffeinated, but here's my demented logic...

Ball moved back in the scrum and SH of team in possession *just* touches the ball while it is still under the #8, perhaps rolls it back an inch to avoid risk of knock-on, then quickly removes their hand to avoid getting flattened. As per the law the ball is played and the scrum is over.

But, we now have players "from each team [that] are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground" - the definition of a ruck as per 15.2.

(We also have 6 players bound with their necks in a vulnerable state which is not a pleasant thought...)

The ruck creates offside lines, so 1) the oppo flanker cannot peel off to attack, and 2) the oppo SH is unbound so needs to retreat back onside.

Further, with no oppo players over the ball the ruck has been "won" as per 15.17.

The SH in possession now has a few seconds to use or clear the ball which seems to give an advantage that I'd expect players to utilize - but they don't, so I assume I'm missing something.

(Or Italy are going to do this next 6N if they win a scrum;) and within a week we'll finally have this rule clarified.)
 

Dickie E


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Ball moved back in the scrum and SH of team in possession *just* touches the ball while it is still under the #8, perhaps rolls it back an inch to avoid risk of knock-on, then quickly removes their hand to avoid getting flattened. As per the law the ball is played and the scrum is over.

But, we now have players "from each team [that] are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground" - the definition of a ruck as per 15.2.

(We also have 6 players bound with their necks in a vulnerable state which is not a pleasant thought...)

The ruck creates offside lines, so 1) the oppo flanker cannot peel off to attack, and 2) the oppo SH is unbound so needs to retreat back onside.

Further, with no oppo players over the ball the ruck has been "won" as per 15.17.

The SH in possession now has a few seconds to use or clear the ball which seems to give an advantage that I'd expect players to utilize - but they don't, so I assume I'm missing something.

While I understand your logic I would strongly discourage any thought of turning a scrum into a ruck. Refer post #31 in this thread.

Unfortunately the use of the word "played" in the scrum law is at odds with the definition of "played" in the definitions.

You will find life easier if you stick to the tried & proven "ball is out when it is out"
 

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While I understand your logic I would strongly discourage any thought of turning a scrum into a ruck. Refer post #31 in this thread.

Unfortunately the use of the word "played" in the scrum law is at odds with the definition of "played" in the definitions.

You will find life easier if you stick to the tried & proven "ball is out when it is out"
Oh, absolutely - more a mental exercise, certainly not advocating we go down this path. But if this is something I can conjure up then maybe a coach somewhere is also going to try.

Just another reason that this inconsistency needs to be directly addressed by the top.
 
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