No, the ref calls "USE IT" and we get on with rugby.
Gee, I've never seen or heard of such a thing. Is this common in England?
Just so I'm clear:
1. #8 stays bound with 1 arm and picks up ball with other
2. scrum remains static until ref loses patience at which time ref calls "use it". #8 then has 5 seconds to use it
What happens if scrum moves forward? Does ref wait til it stops moving a 2nd time like a maul?
No: under Law 19.26 (confusingly) the referee calls 'use it' after it has been available for 3-5 secs, and the ball must be played out of the scrum immediately.
Newsflash...
If the No 8 picks up the ball the scrum is over.
Phil, are you aware of this practice of a #8 staying bound with 1 arm while picking up the ball with the other? If so, do you call "ball's out" when it happens or penalise the #8 for hand in the scrum or something else?
Newsflash...
If the No 8 picks up the ball the scrum is over.
[LAWS]ENDING A SCRUM
36. The scrum ends :
b. When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that player or is played by that team’s scrum-half.
c. When the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.[/LAWS]
I read the issue being debated is not when the above occurs with the #8 totally unbinding, but when the #8 is still bound with one arm and picks up.
Frankly that has to be a PK/FK (or FK or whatever it is) in my book, but appreciate others milega emay vary.
If it IS to be permitted how long may the #8 remain bound with one arm, ball in the other hand?
didds
If he is still bound then it's not permitted and "Use it" wouldn't be one of the options I was looking at.
For me "use it" is only for when the scrum isn't moving and the ball is at 8's feet. Not for when he picks it up, which ends the scrum, bound or not.
Can I just say your 'Use it' is technically correct but at my level I want them to use it. At higher levels a Penalty should get the right response at following scrums.
Ball moved back in the scrum and SH of team in possession *just* touches the ball while it is still under the #8, perhaps rolls it back an inch to avoid risk of knock-on, then quickly removes their hand to avoid getting flattened. As per the law the ball is played and the scrum is over.
But, we now have players "from each team [that] are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground" - the definition of a ruck as per 15.2.
(We also have 6 players bound with their necks in a vulnerable state which is not a pleasant thought...)
The ruck creates offside lines, so 1) the oppo flanker cannot peel off to attack, and 2) the oppo SH is unbound so needs to retreat back onside.
Further, with no oppo players over the ball the ruck has been "won" as per 15.17.
The SH in possession now has a few seconds to use or clear the ball which seems to give an advantage that I'd expect players to utilize - but they don't, so I assume I'm missing something.
Oh, absolutely - more a mental exercise, certainly not advocating we go down this path. But if this is something I can conjure up then maybe a coach somewhere is also going to try.While I understand your logic I would strongly discourage any thought of turning a scrum into a ruck. Refer post #31 in this thread.
Unfortunately the use of the word "played" in the scrum law is at odds with the definition of "played" in the definitions.
You will find life easier if you stick to the tried & proven "ball is out when it is out"