What would you do?

[Mike Whittaker]

You travel 30 miles to ref a game between 2 second XVs. It is a level 9 game and also merit table.

The keen young skipper of the visiting side approaches to explain that they only have 12 players. He had to do some pursuasive talking to get the others to drive 45 miles with only 12. You suggest he talks to the home team skipper, which he does. You then meet with the 2 skippers.

Home team skipper says he has spoken to his players, and although he has 17 none wish to play for the visitors. You speak to home team skipper on his own and he points out that it is merit table, a 'win is a win', the opposition probably wouldn't do any differently if the roles were reversed, and his team need the pride of a win. He also mentions that last year they had 6 merit table games cancelled by the opposition.

What do you say? What do you do?

A) Speaking as a young aspiring level 9 ref?
B) Speaking as a nothing to prove mature ref?

 

[Simon Griffiths]

Well, I'd point out that according to the rules governing our merit tables (may be different in other areas) the two extra players in his 17 cannot therefore have a game as reserves may only be used if both teams have them and they are equal in numbers - so automatically two people don't get a game ("Sh*t happens" I says to the captain ).

I'd also point out that our merit table's rules/regs (whatever you want to call them) requests that teams offer each other players if one is short (though it doesn't require, so that's just something else for him to think about), then I'd also point out that there are extra points available to teams who lend others players. (As I say, at least round here).

Then, if he's still being stubborn and (I would even say) unsporting, I'd warn him that my carding hand fancies liberal use that afternoon... Or I'd withdraw myself from the match (being just as stubborn), ask him to find another ref and ask the visiting captain where he wants me to play...

 

[Deeps]

I'd withdraw myself from the match (being just as stubborn), ask him to find another ref and ask the visiting captain where he wants me to play...

Nice one Noddy.

I think I might enquire of the skipper as to whether he had the full backing of the Club President and the Club Committee in this endeavour and what did he think his chances of remaining skipper would be when they found out from the letter I was beginning to compose?

 

[Robert Burns]

It's not for me to enforce the rules of the leagues, my job is only to apply the laws within the games limits.

If the two captains could not come to a solution then there is no game, if required I would write a report to the league about what happened, but under no circumstances am I going to tell or pursuede captains about what they should or shouldn't do for each other. I would ask, but that's as far as I feel I should go.

 

[ex-lucy]

nice on deeps. i liek that answer. Copied/ pasted for future use.

 

[OB..]

As an organiser, I applaud the away skipper, and I intensely dislike the attitude of the home team skipper - but it is not uncommon.

I made it quite clear to the Society that referees were NOT expected to know the regulations for the competition (but they were available of the website for information).

As a referee you presumably want a game, and the danger is that the attitude of the home skipper may make the away team decide to scratch - in which case everybody loses. And you know they are already unhappy about cancelled games.

Unfortunately I know of no way to force players to be sensible about this sort of thing, and ultimately it is up to them. If they don't want to play, that is that.

I think the referee's baseline message should be "We are all here for a game of rugby. Nobody wants it abandoned. Please reach some agreement so that we can get on with it." However individual referees may choose to be more persuasive, in the wider interests of the game.

 

[LeeTowers]

I agree one hundred percent with Robert. As referees it is not our job to enforce the rules and regulations of the leagues. It is the job of the two captains to decide what they want to do in this situation. If they can't agree then no game.

Referees carry enough responsibility on their shoulders without carrying the responsibility of the players as well.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Let me now just chip in a further consideration..

After about 20 mins the score is already 30 - 0, the home team are laughing and the away team are getting thoroughly despondent...

Do you stick to the 'I just ref what is in front of me.' (presuming that is what you have been doing) or do you deviate in any way?

Do you stop to think about the wider interests of the game or is that somebody else's problem?

 

[Simon Griffiths]

Mike a very good point. There may be 'points' on offer, but to all intents and purposes this is still social rugby. As far as I'm concerned, as the only neutral there I should be trying at least to even the match up (not through refereeing decisions but diplomacy with the captains). I personally think at this level that Robert and Lee's views mean that we are failing in our duty to the game of rugby as much as the home captain.

From the Playing Charter:

In an age in which many traditional sporting qualities are being diluted or even challenged, rugby is rightly proud of its ability to retain high standards of sportsmanship, ethical behaviour and fair play.

 

[OB..]

Mike - much depends on the tenor of the game. If the home team are mocking, then it would be appropriate to talk to the captain and point out that you will have to start awarding penalties if it doesn't stop. If the score gets too one-sided, the captains might be happy for you to end the game early.

I have been on both ends of lop-sided scores, and neither is much fun. That said we once played a team composed largely of SAS on leave, who beat us 66-6 - and it was a great game because they played in the right spirit.

 

[Davet]

I suspect that I might be very hard on advantage - very short opportunities leading to "advantage over" for the home side, yet looking to allow the visitors to try something and then come back for the offence if nothing worked. I may also be a tad tighter on speed of release at the breakdown and rolling away at the tackle on behalf of the home side. We all know there are 50/50 calls.... they may become 10/90 calls. And that ball dropped in the act of the away winger scoring? It clearly went straight down not forwards, and the player then dropped on it with his belly...try awarded.

I wouldn't recommend "missing" offences (or at least no more than usual!) but act on them with perhaps a little difference in emphasis between the two sides.

Any complaints of bias by home team - "Not at all - just applying the laws. You're a good side - but you might have a couple of issues to work on in training. Certainly you're giving away more penalties at the breakdown than I normally see - I hadn't really thought about Yellows, but you're right - something isn't working properly for you."

 

[tim White]

have we not been down this road before?

Whilst I agree with all diplomatic efforts to achieve a game that all can enjoy you must ref exactly as you would normally, evenly, equitably, consistently. Your reputation for being fair and just is hard earned and ONE game like this will blow it all away.

Make sure everyone knows why the game is off, or one sided and make sure they know you tried to make the captain see sense. Copies of short note to both clubs and league secretary might help in future but there is not a lot you can do if home captain is adamant. This is not your problem, no matter how frustrating it is.

 

[ex-lucy]

ummm, i agree with Tim .. but also i agree with Deeps and others ....

heart says one thing .... head another ...

 

[Davet]

Whilst I agree with all diplomatic efforts to achieve a game that all can enjoy you must ref exactly as you would normally, evenly, equitably, consistently. Your reputation for being fair and just is hard earned and ONE game like this will blow it all away.

Possible.

Though your reputation for being someone who is interested in ensuring that players enjoy their game may be enhanced.

Yer takes yer pick and yer pays yer money.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Thanks for all the comments... all interesting and I don't see anyone being wrong in their approach. It is a very personal matter and highly dependent upon the game, the clubs, your own status and your own values.

I know why I used to go out to referee (and still do hopefully) and that made it quite clear for me. As long as we are all clear in our own minds.

 

[Chris Picard]

Quick question, if the visiting side cannot field a proper side under your Merit league rules, does the home side automatically get the win?

If so, the answer to this question is real simple, tell the home skipper -- you have the win, now please give them some players so everyone can get a run in today.

 

[madref]

Hi

Look at http://www.zen57462.zen.co.uk/nowirul/

The rules are there for eveyone to see we can play with 9 players from each side

David

 

[Deeps]

Chris,

OB and others would know better than I but it is my understanding that merit tables are run at the county 'Constituency Body' level, so effectively each county establishes its own regulations.

Broadly, the idea of the merit tables is to allow non 1st XV sides to play sides of similar ability to provide a realistic competition while being relatively free of punitive regulations. For example, if a trained front row cannot be provided then we can go with uncontested scrums from the outset and the result stands. Another allows players to be lent from the opposition to make up numbers, at the agreement of the team captains and the result stands.

In theory you could have a 2nd XV in the same league as a 4th XV.

Vets of course have their own league and many vets teams would do quite well in the merit tables too, presumably on the basis that old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill anyday.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Deeps is correct in that each CB (County) in England makes it own choices about non NCC (National Clubs Championships=Leagues) teams.

Many CB's have set up Merit Table competitions and apply their own regulations. In Hampshire one regulation is that when promotion / relegation is reviewed at the end of the season, two teams form the same club cannot play in the same Merit Table.
Other CBs (e.g. Dorset & Wilts) have incorporated 2nd and 3rd XV of higher level clubs into their county leagues (e.g Bournemouth 2 are in Dorset & Wilts 1)

Additionally the even higher level clubs (National League and London or SW1) have set up their own Leagues for 2nd XV (e.g Canterbury Shield [sponsored by the shirt maker] and Thames Valley League).
What this gives us is a myriad of different competitions with different regulations on how to handle FR replacements, unopposed scrums, numbers of replacements, etc.

 

[Brian Ravenhill]

Returning to Tim's points at 12

I had an U19 game Saturday, home side had drawn some of their U19 first teamer’s out to play for the U19, couple of county players, one school boy international, so had a very big very good side.
Opposition by comparison very small only one replacement.
So I had a miss-match of skill not numbers.
20 minutes into game home team 40 - 3 up. so to make a game of it had to adjust interpretations of laws differently for either team.
At down time with injuries explained to coaches what I was doing and both were happy. In the end we all went them turning up wanting to play next week, don't we?