[Ruck] When could a #9's digging in ruck become hands in?

[Huck2Spit]

I know promoting quick ball and continuity of play is encouraged.
I feel good when I see a 9 reach a foot into a ruck/scrum and roll the ball back to a better spot to the get pass off. I feel uneasy (whistle moving to lips) when I see them use their hand to roll it back to that better passing spot.
I'm even more uneasy when I see the hand rolling it back when they're loosing the contest / moving backwards.
How do you mange a 9's borrowing/ reaching in?
What I'd like to see is a clean pick up if they put their hands on it. But not sure if that's how every one else (coaches, last week's ref, other ref's, fans, scrum halves...)

 

[crossref]

On the TV we dont any longer see the 9 rolling / repositioning with their hands. It's been stamped out. They use their feet.
I copy that approach..

If they need to dig they can dig, but if the ball is available and they put their hands on it, it must be to use it, not to roll it around

 

[Rich_NL]

If they're losing the contest and look like they're going for a quick dig, I call "no hands". If they're having to dig because someone's not rolling away, there's already an issue. On the other hand, if they're trapping the tackler who's struggling hard to get away, in the hope of milking a penalty, I'm not so keen to reward it.

It also depends on the level. Promoting a fair and enjoyable game is more important than showing that you've memorised the laws and clarifications, and if the players aren't pushing the boundaries of human ability in the framework of the rules, or are still learning, or are over 50 and hungover to a man, coaching and leniency can lead to a better match.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

On the TV we dont any longer see the 9 rolling / repositioning with their hands. It's been stamped out. They use their feet.

How does the 9 using his feet as you describe remain onside?

 

[crossref]

How does the 9 using his feet as you describe remain onside?

Because he has part of one foot in front of the back of the ball, you mean ?
Is that material ?

 

[Huck2Spit]

Ok, using TV as the standard--I'm surprised by that response crossref.

what brought this to mind was when doing a early season women's university level match. Theirs and my first game this fall. There was a 5m scrum awarded to red (defending) from a green KO near goal line. Red wins the hook and ball is under red #8. As red 9 looks for receiver in position for clearing kick, green get their drive going. Red is moving backwards when red 9 hand rolls the ball back to herself into in goal and touches down.
First thought (was where was the green 9 diving for the ball in goal to score) then carried back and grounded so 5m scrum attacking, which is what I went with in the moment....green won that scrum #8 picked and scored...
Then after wards when reviewing the day thought PK hands in, or even PT since green had a very probable shot of getting a push over try.
9's expect some license to get the ball and keep playing moving, but also #9 can take license with everything and if you give them an inch...

 

[Christy]

Hi huck .
In the case of 5 meter scrum above .
By red 9 rolling the ball back , i would of deemed this as ball removed from scrum & back in open play .

I would deem what you did next was correct
Taken back in goal by deffender , touched down = attacking scrum ..

 

[crossref]

Ok, using TV as the standard--I'm surprised by that response crossref.

what brought this to mind was when doing a early season women's university level match. Theirs and my first game this fall. There was a 5m scrum awarded to red (defending) from a green KO near goal line. Red wins the hook and ball is under red #8. As red 9 looks for receiver in position for clearing kick, green get their drive going. Red is moving backwards when red 9 hand rolls the ball back to herself into in goal and touches down.
First thought (was where was the green 9 diving for the ball in goal to score) then carried back and grounded so 5m scrum attacking, which is what I went with in the moment....green won that scrum #8 picked and scored...
Then after wards when reviewing the day thought PK hands in, or even PT since green had a very probable shot of getting a push over try.
9's expect some license to get the ball and keep playing moving, but also #9 can take license with everything and if you give them an inch...

If she rolled it back and grounded it all in one movement I don't think that's a problem, that's playing it

If she rolled the ball to position and then stood up and looked around, I'd tell her to use it.
Then afterwards I'd say : don't use your hands to roll the ball around -- digging is OK, but if the ball is available to play and you put your hands on it, it should only be to use it.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Because he has part of one foot in front of the back of the ball, you mean ?
Is that material ?

I mean the 9 has one foot in front of hindmost foot. I guess if that foot remains off the ground he is okay. Offside line is HMF

As to material, i gotta think bout it. Let me think.

 

[OB..]

I mean the 9 has one foot in front of hindmost foot. I guess if that foot remains off the ground he is okay. Offside line is HMF

As to material, i gotta think bout it. Let me think.

[LAWS]19.29 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team in possession has at least one foot level with or behind the ball.[/FONT][/LAWS]

 

[Pinky]

remember that 8s now also are allowed to handle the ball in the scrum

 

[Decorily]

remember that 8s now also are allowed to handle the ball in the scrum

Yes and no. It depends on what exactly they use their hands to do.
They can pick the ball up but not channel it back and leave it.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

[LAWS]19.29 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team in possession has at least one foot level with or behind the ball.[/FONT][/LAWS]

My understanding from your post is that we should use the scrum law in this ruck query to keep similar on field situations uniformly refereed in the absence of specifics.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

[LAWS]19.29 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team in possession has at least one foot level with or behind the ball.[/FONT][/LAWS]

following 19.29, the picture from the lawbook law 15 is not in agreement for a ruck

 

[crossref]

I think I caused the confusion by accidentally citing scrum laws in a thread about a ruck. That was an accidental mistake .

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Because he has part of one foot in front of the back of the ball, you mean ?
Is that material ?

By law 15, the offside line for player actin as SH is HMF. A poster may have suggested that 19.29 can be applied.

Now as far as materiality. If we do not allow the player as SH this dispensation, we may end up with unplayable ball, more stoppages, and more scrums.

Conversely, it is almost always material if an offside player to play the ball. But is this case discussed and for the sake of a pleasant afternoon, it isn't material. I dunno.

 

[Pinky]

For me it is all about materiality and a key question is whether the contest for the ball is over. if so, then I am not going to ping a s/h for a bit of digging or stepping ahead of the hind foot to do so. But if there is a clear track back for the ball I will expect the s/h to use their feet to move it. What I won't allow is the s/h to wander up the side to dig the ball out and then take off running forwards.

Oh, and remember that when OB (and some of the rest of us) were boys, there was no such thing as a ruck, it was called a loose scrum, so using some of the scrum offsides for the side who has won the ball does not seem stupid.

 

[crossref]

I am not a fan of scrum halves positionig the ball with their feet , but it seems to be universally accepted so ...

 

[didds]

the alternatives being

* watching a ball stuck under a leg in static ruck for 30 seconds then blowing for a scrum
* allowing the s/half to dig around with probably both hands to free it - but in so doing being in a poor position to pass away decently so then having to allow them to leave the ball at the base just inside and reposition to achieve some sort of decent clearance

It just comes down to what sort of game "we" want to play/watch/referee

didds

 

[ChrisR]

I am not a fan of scrum halves positionig the ball with their feet , but it seems to be universally accepted so ...

Once the ball is clearly won then I have no problem with moving the ball back by hand or foot. When players are stacked in the ruck to provide more depth for the box kick how else is the SH going to move the ball to the hind foot?

C'mon let's just get it back in play.