When is the ball out of a ruck?

[OB..]

Yesterday's training session was a panel-led discussion on what referees, players, coaches and assessors expect of each other.

One of the thinbgs that got mentioned several times was consistency, though we found it useful to distinguish "consistency" (by a referee during a game) and "uniformity" (all refeees across all games).

To give the discussion a specific focus, I said that at almost every PMB someone asks "When is the ball out of a ruck?". I hear almost as many answers as there are refeees, and it seemed to me a good exemple of where society training could produce uniformity, at least in our area.

I know this subject has come up before, but I thought it would be useful to collect a wide rnage of approaches from the assembled group of experts.

[LAWS]16.6 A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.[/LAWS]
For me that means the ball has to be clear of the players in the ruck. However there is a rider: by convention the scrum half is allowed to use his hands to clear the ball from the ruck, and he may have difficulty pulling it out from under a player. I would allow him to do that provided he lifts the ball clear of the ruck as soon as he can. If he delays with his hands on the ball when he could lift it out, he is technically handling in the ruck.

I recommend saying the first bit, but making the scrum half aware of the rider if he starts to take liberties.

Over to you.

 

[crossref]

Surely the IRB have now answered that question and we simply need to follow that

[LAWS]When a scrum half attempts to retrieve the ball from a ruck, the ball is not out until that player has picked the ball up from the ground.

In the clip the scrum half is taken out by the player before the ball is off the ground and this would be deemed to be offside by the player tackling the scrum half. If, however, the scrum half had picked up the ball and a defending player tackles the scrum half, that player does so without sanction. [/LAWS]

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=9

I used to say something different, now I just repeat what the IRB say.

the only thing I add is : this doesn't give you a licence to stand behind the ruck with your hands on the ball, not lifting it. If you are digging that's fine but once the ball is available, then if you have your hands on it I expect you to play it.

 

[Phil E]

If you are digging that's fine but once the ball is available, then if you have your hands on it I expect you to play it.

....and I would expect the referee to say "use it".

 

[crossref]

it's a good point for discussion

I can say 'use it' when the ball is on the floor, and then he has five seconds.

If he already has his hands on it, while it's not yet out, I don't think he's entitled to a 'use-it' and then to stand there with his hands still on it for five more seconds before he lifts it. But I concede that the Law doesn't quite back me up.

 

[TheBFG]

PMB (as per last 5 years!)

(when talking to the SH) "Captain please make sure the rest of your team know this (they nod, but rarely pass the information on!), when digging for the ball that's in, as soon as you lift it off the ground the ball is out and providing the defenders come from an on-side position, you're fair game, OK?"

"If I believe the ball is in a playable position I will tell you to use it, you have 5 seconds, any other questions?"

 

[Rushforth]

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=9

Thanks for the reference, it is what I've been doing, fortunately.

I also greatly appreciate OB..'s distinction between "consistency" and "uniformity".

The discussion of "five seconds" seems to be most important in terms of uniformity, which is obviously what we try to achieve here on these forums. The "use it" was in my understanding to be used for mauls rather than rucks, and particularly static mauls (no longer moving forwards in the direction of the opposition try line) where there might be significant resistance from the defending side to the ball coming out.

Once a ruck has been won (ball on one side, the other side no-longer counter-rucking), I cannot see the need for an additional 5 seconds of play unless perhaps it is Old Fartonians 4th XV playing. With both hands on the ball, the attacking scrum-half should be looking to get it out of there as quickly as possible before the defence can realign.

In the interest of safety rather than the letter of the law I will ask them to use it and generally get compliance, but that is more a matter of my consistency for a very common situation within the match.

 

[Pegleg]

Thanks for the reference, it is what I've been doing, fortunately.

I also greatly appreciate OB..'s distinction between "consistency" and "uniformity".

The discussion of "five seconds" seems to be most important in terms of uniformity, which is obviously what we try to achieve here on these forums. The "use it" was in my understanding to be used for mauls rather than rucks, and particularly static mauls (no longer moving forwards in the direction of the opposition try line) where there might be significant resistance from the defending side to the ball coming out.

16.7 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK

(c) When the ball has been clearly won by a team at a ruck and the ball is available to be
played the referee will call “Use it!” after which the ball must be played within five seconds.
If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not
in possession of the ball at the ruck is awarded the throw-in.

 

[Dixie]

Surely the IRB have now answered that question and we simply need to follow that

[LAWS]When a scrum half attempts to retrieve the ball from a ruck, the ball is not out until that player has picked the ball up from the ground.

In the clip the scrum half is taken out by the player before the ball is off the ground and this would be deemed to be offside by the player tackling the scrum half. [/LAWS]

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=9

Interesting that the iRB views this offence as offside. I'd have gone for 10.4(f):

[LAWS](f) Playing an opponent without the ball. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball must not hold, push or obstruct an opponent not carrying the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Surely the IRB have now answered that question and we simply need to follow that

[LAWS]If, however, the scrum half had picked up the ball and a defending player tackles the scrum half, that player does so without sanction. . [/LAWS]

Does this mean that Clarification 8 of 2006 needs to be revisited?

Ruling

8-2006


Union

FFR


Law Reference

16


Date

29 November 2006


Request

The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16 Ruck
Question:
1. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on an opponent as soon as his opponent has his hands on the ball, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
2. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on the ball as soon as it emerges from the ruck, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
3. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the
opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by diving over the
players on the ground in front of him?
4. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the
opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by staying on his feet but being in contact with players on the ground in front of him?


Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

1. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
2. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
3. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
4. Yes. If the player was on his feet and came from an onside position.

The justification for responses 1-3 depends on the ball still being in the ruck, as otherwise laws 16.2 and 16.3 would have ceased to have effect.

 

[The umpire]

I PMB the whole team. They get told it isn'tout until it's completely clear of the ruck. The SH hands on on its own is not enough. If he has hold of it and is delaying playing it, then I'll call "ball's out", you can tackle him and he won't do it again.Never had to call "ball's out" yet.

Personally I prefer them to get it out and play, rather than have another pile up of bodies around an existing ruck.

 

[crossref]

Am i only the person who has varied what he says as a result of the IRB video? Is everyone else conituing to plough the accustomary furrow regardless?

it seems to me that what the IRB say in 2014 certainly overrules what they said in 2006.
Lots of old clarifications have since been overridden by new Laws.

 

[Phil E]

All the old clarifications were incorporated into law a year or so ago.
If they then alter the law (as they appear to have done here), then we all know where we stand.

 

[Rushforth]

Thanks Pegleg, shows how often I reread the laws nowadays At least I was making the right decisions.

 

[SimonSmith]

Page 15 of the USA R GMG:

A. Ruck1. The ball is out when it is totally exposed and clear of bodies (of players in the
ruck).
2. While the competition for the ball in a ruck is ongoing, hands by players in the
ruck, are NOT allowed. PK
3. Once the ball has been clearly won, pushing the ball back by using the hand,
by a player of the team that have won possession of the ball is permissible,
4. Digging for the ball, by the player of the team who has won possession of the
ball, who is in the scrumhalf position and not part of the ruck, is permissible
and the BALL IS NOT OUT.
5. If a player in the scrum half position is not retrieving (digging for) the ball, but
holding the ball, with one or two hands, the BALL IS NOT OUT, picking up the
ball is OUT.
6. Players in the ruck may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the
scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK P
7.
B. Maul
1. Players in the maul may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the
scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK
C. Scrum
1. The ball is out when it is totally exposed and clear of bodies (of players in the
scrum).
2. If the #8 detaches from the scrum (both shoulders) with the ball at the feet,
and attempts to pick up the ball, the BALL IS OUT

 

[crossref]

this is an odd one

6. Players in the ruck may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the
scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK P

if the scrum half has lifted the ball - and it IS out - why not?

 

[Ian_Cook]

this is an odd one



if the scrum half has lifted the ball - and it IS out - why not?

Perhaps because they consider players IN the ruck to be ahead of the hindmost foot and therefore offside at the moment the ruck ends?

Certainly, if a player IN the ruck is on the ground, or leaning on other players in the ruck, and he slaps the ball out of the SH's hands, I would ping him for playing the ball while off his feet.

I certainly agree with USAR's sentiment here even if their stance isn't quite Law. Its a pet dislike of mine

 

[RobLev]

Perhaps because they consider players IN the ruck to be ahead of the hindmost foot and therefore offside at the moment the ruck ends?

Wouldn't a player in the ruck be bound into the ruck - and hence onside despite being ahead of the HMF.

Certainly, if a player IN the ruck is on the ground, or leaning on other players in the ruck, and he slaps the ball out of the SH's hands, I would ping him for playing the ball while off his feet.

I certainly agree with USAR's sentiment here even if their stance isn't quite Law. Its a pet dislike of mine

No real disagreement there.

 

[crossref]

I certainly agree with USAR's sentiment here even if their stance isn't quite Law. Its a pet dislike of mine

me too - but when it happens I don't feel on entirely safe ground if I penalise it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Wouldn't a player in the ruck be bound into the ruck - and hence onside despite being ahead of the HMF.

True, that's why I said "perhaps" it is their thinking.

However, a player bound into the ruck is gaining support from the players he is bound to, so he's not "on his feet unsupported"

me too - but when it happens I don't feel on entirely safe ground if I penalise it.

OK, so how about this? The ball is slapped out of the SH hands by a....

1. player lying in the ruck on the ground - Ping for playing ball while off his feet.

2. player lying on top of the ruck or bound into the ruck - Ping for playing ball while off his feet.

3. player standing on his feet to the side of the ruck but ahead of the HMF - Ping for offside.

4. player standing behind the ruck in an onside position and who reaches over or around the ruck without leaning on it - play on, unless the ball goes forward from him, in which case ping him for an intentional knock forward.

i.e., the only way you are going to get away with it is #4 and the ball does not go forward from you, that is, if you're Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and you have arms like a gorilla.

 

[Taff]

this is an odd one .. if the scrum half has lifted the ball - and it IS out - why not?

Simple - because it would probably be a deliberate knock-on.

I suppose in theory you could knock the ball vertically downwards or backwards, but let's be honest the chances of that happening are slim.

 

[crossref]

it's not the slapping out that is hard to penalise, that's easy enough : it's a deliberate knock on

6. Players in the ruck may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the
scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK P

it's the interfere. Why not grab the scrum half's arm?