When is the ball out of a ruck?

[crossref]

Another question is when is the ball out of a tackle-with-offside-lines? Is that the same answer as for a ruck ?

It strikes me that on a tackle-with-offside-lines the seagull will often get a better view

Another difference is that scrum half won't normally need to dig in a tackle-with-offside-lines

 

[didds]

Agreed.

However I observe that the seagull view is not the one being applied at the top level. You often see players carefully keeping a foot either side of the ball while the scrum half positions himself for a box kick.

The seagull approach is flawed because the defenders (and usually the referee as well) do not have that view and therefore have to guess.

Its also hugely flawed for the obvious situation whereby a seagull can crap on a ball that is clearly well in front of the rear feet CF #8 scrummage leg position.

The elastic band analogy is far better IMO, FWTW.

didds

 

[OB..]

It strikes me that on a tackle-with-offside-lines the seagull will often get a better view

Seagullos don't play rugby. Their view is vertical. Most players /referees/ARs spectators are nearer horizontal.

The replays being used at Twickenham seemed to suggest that the criterion was "when the scrum half lifts the ball".

 

[Dickie E]

Seagullos don't play rugby. Their view is vertical. Most players /referees/ARs spectators are nearer horizontal.

The replays being used at Twickenham seemed to suggest that the criterion was "when the scrum half lifts the ball".

every situation I remember in that game was "ball had left ruck". Can you give some specific examples where "when the scrum half lifts the ball" but ball was still in ruck was utilised please?

 

[OB..]

every situation I remember in that game was "ball had left ruck". Can you give some specific examples where "when the scrum half lifts the ball" but ball was still in ruck was utilised please?

I don't have a library of video clips.

I quoted what was being shown on TV in the NZ game.

 

[SimonSmith]

USA defines ball out as "totally exposed" AND "clear of bodies".

 

[Pinky]

every situation I remember in that game was "ball had left ruck". Can you give some specific examples where "when the scrum half lifts the ball" but ball was still in ruck was utilised please?

Dickie, I think lifted and still in would be unlikely, and confined only to the situation where the SH has to dig the ball out with his hands. Some refs (incl on TV) would allow him to put it back down and get ready for the pass or box kick, and only when he picks it up again would it be out. I would prefer a SH to keep his hands on the ball and whilst I would allow him to dig it out, I owuld expect that he move fluidly to pass or kick once the ball was in his hands and not in contact with other players. But then I am a stickler for the old ways!

 

[crossref]

Here's one to toss into the debate

From World Rugby - the ball isn't out until the scrum half lifts it

[LAWS]Offside at the ruck
May 2014
When a scrum half attempts to retrieve the ball from a ruck, the ball is not out until that player has picked the ball up from the ground.

In the clip the scrum half is taken out by the player before the ball is off the ground and this would be deemed to be offside by the player tackling the scrum half. If, however, the scrum half had picked up the ball and a defending player tackles the scrum half, that player does so without sanction.
[/LAWS]

So it's NOT out when it's out. It's out when he lifts it

Four years old - but still valid ?

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=7&language=EN

 

[Jz558]

Without wanting to complicate the subject further the clip highlighted by Crossref raises a further issue. By no definition is that ball out as it is still in advance of the hindmost players back foot. If we however accept, which by relatively recent convention we do, that referees will allow the scrum half to retrieve the ball with his hands to keep the game moving rather than waiting until the ball is rucked out then it’s not a huge leap to apply 2 definitions of ball out.

If I have permitted the scrum half to retrieve the ball with his hands then the ball is out when it is lifted. If the ball is rucked it is out when all of the ball is beyond the back foot of the last player in the ruck.

I would rather we didn’t allow players to ferret in rucks as I think it blurs the laws but that is the convention and I think we should do what is expected. Allowing players to dig around has become necessary due to the way top level referees appear to have been directed to officiate the break down. During rucks in which all participants stay on their feet there should be no need to put hands in.

 

[Pinky]

Without wanting to complicate the subject further the clip highlighted by Crossref raises a further issue. By no definition is that ball out as it is still in advance of the hindmost players back foot. If we however accept, which by relatively recent convention we do, that referees will allow the scrum half to retrieve the ball with his hands to keep the game moving rather than waiting until the ball is rucked out then it’s not a huge leap to apply 2 definitions of ball out.

If I have permitted the scrum half to retrieve the ball with his hands then the ball is out when it is lifted. If the ball is rucked it is out when all of the ball is beyond the back foot of the last player in the ruck.

I would rather we didn’t allow players to ferret in rucks as I think it blurs the laws but that is the convention and I think we should do what is expected. Allowing players to dig around has become necessary due to the way top level referees appear to have been directed to officiate the break down. During rucks in which all participants stay on their feet there should be no need to put hands in.

Jz558, welcome to the site. I agree that there are multiple circumstances that determine when the ball is out of the ruck, but generally they are all about defining when that is. Ball is lifted is clearly one of those. Ball clear of players in the ruck is the other main one. There is some debate as to how this is assessed, some looking to seagull (other birds are available) poo, but I think you are probably wrong in your assertion that it is when it is beyond the back foot unless the ball is coming out under that last player. A ball can be out of a ruck even if it is in front of the back foot, eg it emerges alongside the hindmost player, but is clear of the ruck.

 

[Jz558]

Thank you for your reply Pinky, I should have been more precise but of course if the ball leaves by channels other than the hindmost player then of course that is still permissible, but the overall criteria remain the same. Whilst playing and coaching I was in no doubt what constituted ball out and I don’t remember this being an issue 10, 15 or 20 years ago. This is a recent discussion, so why? We can discuss seagulls defecating until we are blue in the face but it is ultimately misleading. It is possible to have the ball between the back feet of the hindmost player and any passing sea bird could take advantage in which ever way took their fancy however the ball would still be in the ruck. It is only out if the ball is sitting beyond the back foot of the last player through whose channel it exited. That is of course unless we allow the scrum half to ferret for it in which case see crossref's posting above.

 

[crossref]

To be fair the seagull was comprehensively slain a few years ago, and I hadn't heard anyone suggest it as a criteria for quite some time.

In vogue now is
- outside the elastic band stretched around everyone's feet
- or when the 9 lifts it

But then in the summer World Rugby unexpectedly came up with the new, additional possibilty .. the ruck is over when the ball is clearly exposed .

 

[crossref]

I distinctly heard WB say today.. its "when he lifts it "
Anyone else hear that ?

 

[Flish]

I distinctly heard WB say today.. its "when he lifts it "
Anyone else hear that ?

He also said “it’s still in” and “I’ll tell you when it’s out” a few times so obviously there’s been some chat since last week amongst the refs. Telling players when it’s out is probably dangerous mind unless you get it every time.