When is the ball out of a ruck?

[RobLev]

True, that's why I said "perhaps" it is their thinking.

However, a player bound into the ruck is gaining support from the players he is bound to, so he's not "on his feet unsupported"

...

Wouldn't that argument (that by the act of binding you are not supporting your own weight and are therefore going off your feet) mean that everyone who binds into a ruck is in breach of 16.3(a):

[LAWS]Players in a ruck must endeavour to stay on their feet.[/LAWS]

So that a ruck is illegal per se?

 

[ChrisR]

The ball is out when it leaves the ruck. Reference 16.6

then

[I"]When a scrum half attempts to retrieve the ball from a ruck, the ball is not out until that player has picked the ball up from the ground."[/I]

Why not stick with the law. It makes no sense to me to introduce a variance that has no real advantage and is going to be more difficult to determine. Can you really say when the ball comes off the deck?

What do you call when the SH digs for it then, without touching it (like you could tell), straightens up to check his options and gets nailed by the ops who think he lifted the ball? PK against the ops for offside? PK against the SH for deceiving the ops?

Why make it harder? Not necessary. I'm sticking with 16.6 and "It's out when it's out".

 

[Ian_Cook]

Wouldn't that argument (that by the act of binding you are not supporting your own weight and are therefore going off your feet) mean that everyone who binds into a ruck is in breach of 16.3(a):

[LAWS]Players in a ruck must endeavour to stay on their feet.[/LAWS]

So that a ruck is illegal per se?

Err no.

What are you not allowed to do in a ruck? :biggrin:

Seriously, when the ball leaves the ruck, the ruck is over, so, while you were "on your feet" for the purposes of ruck law, you are not "on your feet " for the purposes of general play and playing the ball.

So its possible to be on your feet and not on your feet a the same time!!

Schrödinger's Ruck? :biggrin:

 

[Taff]

It would make so much more sense if the IRB just included the word "clear" ie the ruck is over when the SH lifts the ball clear of the ruck.

I strongly suspect that's what they meant to say.

 

[Dickie E]

The ball is out when it leaves the ruck. Reference 16.6

then

[I"]When a scrum half attempts to retrieve the ball from a ruck, the ball is not out until that player has picked the ball up from the ground."[/I]

Why not stick with the law. It makes no sense to me to introduce a variance that has no real advantage and is going to be more difficult to determine. Can you really say when the ball comes off the deck?

What do you call when the SH digs for it then, without touching it (like you could tell), straightens up to check his options and gets nailed by the ops who think he lifted the ball? PK against the ops for offside? PK against the SH for deceiving the ops?

Why make it harder? Not necessary. I'm sticking with 16.6 and "It's out when it's out".

Marauder, I couldn't agree more.

If a SH is fannying about, I'll manage it. I won't give the opposition loose forwards a mandate to do that for me.

 

[Browner]

It would make so much more sense if the IRB just included the word "clear" ie the ruck is over when the SH lifts the ball clear of the ruck.

.

Clear of / out / from / exits / removed ..... It's all the same difference

IF the intention is to give the SH time to resume open play, then I favour removal from a 2D circle rather than 3D dome ( to use some kind of description) however in reality this extra fraction of a second makes very little difference.

I always disliked the SH being in a leaning forward position then getting pummelled by a 'loose forward' who predicted /saw/anticipated a fingertip on the ball , that 9 position was very vulnerable IMO, which is why 'hands on' was never refereed by me. I'm glad the IRB saw sense.

Q? After the scrum half has clearly removed the ball i presume everyone agree's we now now have open play.(?)
So, Arent players (lawfully engaged on feet ) in the aforementioned but now ended Ruck or Maul immediately 'onside in open play' and free to grab the SH if he's daft enough to remain within range?

If not, a law reference please.

Dixie,
The players Offside would occur before his 10.4(f) offence, surely? Hence the IRB wording.

 

[crossref]

Why make it harder? Not necessary. I'm sticking with 16.6 and "It's out when it's out".

I underastand where you are coming from - but I don't see how you can simply ignore the new advice on the IRB Website, just because you don't agree with it.

they are the IRB, after all, they are in charge.

 

[ChrisR]

I didn't get the memo .....

 

[Ian_Cook]

I favour the "3D" model as used in this part of the world. Maybe not so important at grass-root where the rucks are "deeper" but at the elite end, rucks tend to be "shallower" and it becomes too easy to disrupt the SH.

"The ball is out when it comes completely clear of bodies"

The less chance we give ruck players to disrupt the SH ball distribution, the less chance we have of messy play around the ruck area, the more chance we have of an open game.

 

[crossref]

I didn't get the memo .....

My instinct is always : I find it hard to trust the secret emails, unless I also see it clearly in the Laws/regulations on the website

But there is a also a culture in rugby of refusing to trust what the RFU and IRB put clearly on the website, unless it's also backed up with secret email from someone important

Here's what the IRB have put on the website http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=9
(no, so far as I recall, I don't think my Society have put out an email about this either)

 

[Browner]

My instinct is always : I find it hard to trust the secret emails, unless I also see it clearly in the Laws/regulations on the website

But there is a also a culture in rugby of refusing to trust what the RFU and IRB put clearly on the website, unless it's also backed up with secret email from someone important

Here's what the IRB have put on the website http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=9
(note, so far as I recall, I don't think my Society have put out an email about this either)

Nor mine,
hense last weekends society ref telling u16s that 'hands on was out' ...

 

[The Fat]

Here's what the IRB have put on the website http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=9
(no, so far as I recall, I don't think my Society have put out an email about this either)

IMO, that memo from the IRB is a crock of shit and does little to clarify the question of when the ball is out. According to the video and accompanying text, if Genia had lifted the ball 1cm off the ground, then he would have been fair game even though it is obvious that the ball is not out.
I'll stick with the ARU view as per Ian's video until someone from the ARU tells me something different and even then I'll probably argue the point if they try to justify that IRB video and text.
It really is NOT THAT HARD to police this part of the game.

 

[Taff]

... According to the video and accompanying text, if Genia had lifted the ball 1cm off the ground, then he would have been fair game even though it is obvious that the ball is not out.

If they'd said "lifted clear" of the ruck (which is what I think they meant) instead of just "lifted" it makes a lot more sense.

 

[The Fat]

If they'd said "lifted clear" of the ruck (which is what I think they meant) instead of just "lifted" it makes a lot more sense.

Agree. Not that hard to get it right. Oh wait, apparently it is.

 

[Browner]

I've rephrased the question.

So, After the scrum half has clearly removed the ball, i presume everyone agree's we now now have 'open play' from the preceding Ruck/Maul.

Q? Are players (lawfully engaged ,on feet ) in the aforementioned but now definately ended Ruck or Maul , immediately ( by virtue of this removal) now 'onside in open play' and therefore fee to detach/lean out to attempt to grab/ tackle the SH, if he's slow enough or daft enough to remain within range?

Or .....are only opposition players leaving the offside line (that existed before the ruck/maul ended) the only players entitled to grab/tackle the SH ?

 

[Accylad]

Am i only the person who has varied what he says as a result of the IRB video? Is everyone else conituing to plough the accustomary furrow regardless?

I have altered what i say to the IRB wording from "it's out when it is has passed the back foot".

I have not changed what I intend to penalise however. That said i cant remember penalising anyone around the ruck for getting at the SH early for ages as a shouted "NO!" stops them in their tracks. Backs up offside because they are too quick are taking a chance if they react to a shout from a team mate of "hands on" or similar.....

 

[matty1194]

When is the ball out of the ruck? One of a number of questions that can turn a 10 minute Q & A into a 3 dayer with what ifs about this and that.

The ball is out when it is "lifted and clear of the hindmost foot" thus giving the SH the SPACE to do with the ball what he likes and as long as we keep all fringe players at the breakdown behind their own hindmost feet then their should be enough space for a SH to get the ball away and for us to have a game of rugby.

 

[Adam]

What I say when asked when the ball is out from the breakdown is:

"It's out when it's clear of the breakdown. If you're in doubt, ask me and I'll give you an answer."

 

[winchesterref]

Yeh me too Adam, easy enough. Don't back myself into a corner by giving definite guidelines. "Clearly out of the breakdown, if you're not sure ask and I will try to give you a yes or no" or something similar

 

[Adam]

Yeh me too Adam, easy enough. Don't back myself into a corner by giving definite guidelines. "Clearly out of the breakdown, if you're not sure ask and I will try to give you a yes or no" or something similar

I answer the ensuing question from the 9 with, "we're not here to see a scrap at the back of the breakdown are we?"