[Scrum] Where can the non-throwing SH go after ball thrown-in ?

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
497
Post Likes
57
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Incident from last weekend.
Blue v Red and it is a Blue scrum.
Red SH started in usual place, next to scrum and Blue SH. After the ball goes in, Red SH then moves to back, behind his Number-8's hindmost foot.
Cue Blue SH pointing at him and appealing to me. He appealed something like "Sir, he cannot come round the open-side". In fact, he stayed behind his number 8's feet, so I think he was just firing a warning at the Red-SH.
Did this law get changed in 2018 ?

From the lawbook:
[LAWS]30 . Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:

Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum or
Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.
[/LAWS]

So that implies the Red SH can NOT run round to the other side of his scrum so long as he keeps both feet behind the ball - right ?
 

Taff


Referees in Wales
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
6,942
Post Likes
383
The opposing SH can't go round the other side of the scrum and follow the ball.

If he wants to move back (ie he isn't following the ball through the scrum) then his new offside line is the hindmost foot - and than runs the whole width of the pitch.

That's how I understand it anyway. :biggrin:
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,805
Post Likes
3,145
Once the Red SH retires to back foot , he can move sideways, open or blind, but can't come forward again , as his offside line is now the back foot

Blue SH needs a warning for shouting at you , and if it's not the first time a PK as well .
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
CTPE, the law bit about permanently retiring 5m is totally unnecessary as the SH will have been onside for the last 5m of that retiral.

You are right that the SH has to go back to the hind foot if he does not remain close to the scrum on the putting in side. I saw a couple of SH being told that by the refs in the internationals at the weekend.

Agree with CR that you should have corked the blue SH
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,479
Solutions
1
Post Likes
439
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
CTPE, the law bit about permanently retiring 5m is totally unnecessary as the SH will have been onside for the last 5m of that retiral.

But once he is back 5m he cannot come forward again. Why that is necessary I do not know - probably a hangover from past Laws. Prime candidate for simplification!
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
But once he is back 5m he cannot come forward again. Why that is necessary I do not know - probably a hangover from past Laws. Prime candidate for simplification!

But as long as he goes back only 4.9m he can come forward again!
 

Nigib


Referees in England
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
342
Post Likes
70
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
But as long as he goes back only 4.9m he can come forward again!

He can't go back 4.9m and be legal - law says either ON the offside line at hindmost foot, or back 5m - stops them shuttling to and fro I guess.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,034
Post Likes
1,775
oniy we know thats not right either... otherwise the s/h couldn't pop around the other side ON the line of the back foot to defend )as is sometimes seen) because they would have to have progressed PAST the back foot to get there.
 

Elpablo73


Referees in England
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
75
Post Likes
22
We have all seen the SH going to the other side of the scrum; but if you are going to apply what would seem to be the intent of the law, shouldn't we be managing the SH to stay on the correct side and penalising them if they don't (obviously applying materiality and the level of the game being played when making a decision)?
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
We have all seen the SH going to the other side of the scrum; but if you are going to apply what would seem to be the intent of the law, shouldn't we be managing the SH to stay on the correct side and penalising them if they don't (obviously applying materiality and the level of the game being played when making a decision)?

But they are allowed to go to the other side of the scrum as long as they remain behind the back foot. If there is a law saying the offside line is the back foot, then there is no need for a law saying the offside line is 5m behind the back foot.
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,479
Solutions
1
Post Likes
439
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
He can't go back 4.9m and be legal - law says either ON the offside line at hindmost foot, or back 5m - stops them shuttling to and fro I guess.

Who HAS to stay ON the offside line? Behind the line is fine. So go back 4.9m and you can come forward again. Go back to 5m+ and you stay at least 5m back.

That's the difference.

I do agree that it is outdated.
 

Elpablo73


Referees in England
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
75
Post Likes
22
Pinky, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I will attempt to explain the interpretation give to me, by more learned people than I, of what the law is trying to say.

The diagram below is one we have all seen many times, and shows 3 offside lines for the blue players. I'm going assume we are all reasonable happy with the 2 outer offside lines relating to blue.

Now for the pesky middle offside line, this line is slightly different to the other two as it marks a line that the furthest the scrum half can go towards their own try line and still be part of the scrum. Once the scrum half has crossed this line they are no longer part of the scrum and so are offside until they cross the uppermost blue offside line.

Further to this, if the scrum half does decide to stay on this offside line they must stay near the scrum, and must remain on the same side (moving to the other side is deemed as overstepping the offside line and is penalisable (this is clearer in the pre-simplified version of the law book).

Scrum_Offside.jpg
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
I agree with ElPablo. The scrum half can't hover 2m behind the back foot (or 4.9m) - he's left the scrum and needs to retire.

They sometimes do this when they're expecting the ball to be run off the back row, but not sure which side it's coming. You effectively have a loose, unbound defender floating around in front of the defensive line.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,805
Post Likes
3,145
The point is that when he gets to the back foot he can then move latererally across the pitch, keeping to that offside line

I don't see any reason why he couldn't stand 1m behind that line if he wanted to (of course he won't want to )
 
Last edited:

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
Because that is the law - per law 19.30, he either retires to a point *on* the offside line at the hind foot, or *at least 5m* behind it.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
Pinky, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I will attempt to explain the interpretation give to me, by more learned people than I, of what the law is trying to say.

The diagram below is one we have all seen many times, and shows 3 offside lines for the blue players. I'm going assume we are all reasonable happy with the 2 outer offside lines relating to blue.

Now for the pesky middle offside line, this line is slightly different to the other two as it marks a line that the furthest the scrum half can go towards their own try line and still be part of the scrum. Once the scrum half has crossed this line they are no longer part of the scrum and so are offside until they cross the uppermost blue offside line.

Further to this, if the scrum half does decide to stay on this offside line they must stay near the scrum, and must remain on the same side (moving to the other side is deemed as overstepping the offside line and is penalisable (this is clearer in the pre-simplified version of the law book).

View attachment 3826

Elpablo, I do not agree with you that the "middle" offside line is as you describe it an on-side line. In the autumn international there have been a number of occasions where SH have left the side of the scrum and been told by the ref to be behind the back foot. I remain of the view that the 5m line only applies when the SH does not line up at the scrum at all.
 

Elpablo73


Referees in England
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
75
Post Likes
22
Pinky, I think we will have to agree to disagree about this; I'm of a firm belief one way and you have a different one. I don't see me getting you to change your interpretation, and that's fine. These are the nuances that make our game special.
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
While the ball is still in the scrum, both scrum halves effectively follow the ball through the scrum up to a point.

If it is won with the put in the opposing scrum half cannot then come round and advance the other side. If it is won against the head ( as if!) the scrum half with the put in cannot then himself go round and advance the other side.

surely it's as straight forward as that?

which s/h in their right mind would give up 5 metres? For me it's a lateral line across the pitch and is just there to ensure the s/h on the side losing the strike cannot close down on the other side.
 
Last edited:
Top