Where's the penalty?

[DrSTU]

Black v green

Level 6 game so they all know what they're doing.

Black set a scrum and get a really good drive going forward, green start to creak going backwards and eventually we lose the back row, then the second row and obviously the front row disintegrate as well so we're left with a perfect diamond of 8 black players all bound on moving forward.

Obviously by now I've signalled penalty advantage and only blow the penalty when the number 8 drops his binds to ride chariot (even though law says the scrum hasn't ended as the ball wasn't picked up).

Good discussion after the game about where the penalty should be given, any thoughts?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I'd say where first backrower loses his bind.

Or is it repeated offences as each player detaches? :biggrin:

 

[DrSTU]

Exactly, it takes 5 to form a scrum so do we keep going until they go below 5!

Seems like a cheap penalty to take it where the first bind is lost as the easy way out of a scrum going backwards is to just drop your back row.

I'd say where first backrower loses his bind.

Or is it repeated offences as each player detaches? :biggrin:

 

[Adam]

I'd give the PK in the most advantageous position for the non-offending side.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I'd give the PK in the most advantageous position for the non-offending side.

Is that where the non offending #8 unbinds?

 

[DrSTU]

Reasoning?

I'm happy with my decision, just want to hear other people's logic.

I'd give the PK in the most advantageous position for the non-offending side.

 

[Dickie E]

Reasoning?

Each time a player detaches it's new advantage

 

[Adam]

Each time a player detaches it's new advantage

It's like a proper Old Boys club on this thread. If I'd met you DrStu then I'd have met everyone who's commented so far!

And I agree with Dickie, I'd probably end up giving it where the scrum ended up. Would look weird running back several metres.

 

[DrSTU]

Exactly. Penalty was given where I thought black had 'ended' the scrum. Definitely not going back to where first player unbound. I like the logic of new advantage for each unbound.

Didn't come up in my assessment so no one (including) either coach had a problem with the call.

 

[Dickie E]

Exactly. Penalty was given where I thought black had 'ended' the scrum. Definitely not going back to where first player unbound. I like the logic of new advantage for each unbound.

noting that if a card was warranted, I'd give it to the first detachee, not the last.

 

[FlipFlop]

PK should be where the last offence occurred. (advantage). So where the last player "unbound". But unless it was significantly further back, then I would go with where the scrum "ended".

I assume you tried to get the #8 to play the ball before blowing?

 

[Browner]

Black v green

Level 6 game so they all know what they're doing.

Black set a scrum and get a really good drive going forward, green start to creak going backwards and eventually we lose the back row, then the second row and obviously the front row disintegrate as well so we're left with a perfect diamond of 8 black players all bound on moving forward.

Obviously by now I've signalled penalty advantage and only blow the penalty when the number 8 drops his binds to ride chariot (even though law says the scrum hasn't ended as the ball wasn't picked up).

Slight tangent ...... Say no8 ( and all black teammates) continues binding correctly, and Green have removed themselves, and this scrum starts deep inside blacks half

If green dont re-engage , or further offend how far can this complete Black scrum advance 'unopposed' before whistling ?

 

[FlipFlop]

why stop the game?

Try line. Scrum has not ended until it crosses the tryline (assuming rest is fine)

 

[Browner]

why stop the game?

Try line. Scrum has not ended until it crosses the tryline (assuming rest is fine)

Hmmnnn

So which is it flipflop?
Don't whistle (as above) or...

. where the last player "unbound"

. As per your Post #11

??

 

[chbg]

Hmmnnn

So which is it flipflop?
Don't whistle (as above) or...
. As per your Post #11
??

You are quoting out of context (again). If Black do not infringe themselves (e.g. No 8 "riding chariot") then the scrum continues until it crosses Green's tryline - "assuming rest is fine" as FlipFlop states. Once Black offend themselves, then back to the last Green offence.

 

[aussie battler]

What if green then realise the black scrum is not stopping and rejoin maul style??

 

[Browner]

. If Black do not infringe themselves (e.g. No 8 "riding chariot") then the scrum continues until it crosses Green's tryline - "assuming rest is fine" as FlipFlop states. Once Black offend themselves, then back to the last Green offence.

Black scrum all stay bound, and ball is controlled by 8.
Scrum starts in own 22 and proceeds towards opposition GL.
Green scrum participants all detatch at intervals , and have all done so by 10 m before halfwayline, Advantage is being now being played .

If B8 now releases his bind (at halfwayline) , so revert to the last Green unbinders offence and award PK to Black on black 10m line..
Ok, All good so far.

But what If the Black wedge legally continues trundling toward OppoGL. What happens if the B8 doesn't release his bind ( that's one hellava long advantage being played) until 15m before GreenGL - do you go back to Black 10m line to award the PK? ( ie the place where green last detached?)

The distances are exaggerated merely to emphasise my pk location query.

 

[Dickie E]

Black scrum all stay bound, and ball is controlled by 8.
Scrum starts in own 22 and proceeds towards opposition GL.
Green scrum participants all detatch at intervals , and have all done so by 10 m before halfwayline, Advantage is being now being played .

If B8 now releases his bind (at halfwayline) , so revert to the last Green unbinders offence and award PK to Black on black 10m line..
Ok, All good so far.

But what If the Black wedge legally continues trundling toward OppoGL. What happens if the B8 doesn't release his bind ( that's one hellava long advantage being played) until 15m before GreenGL - do you go back to Black 10m line to award the PK? ( ie the place where green last detached?)

The distances are exaggerated merely to emphasise my pk location query.

Well, ask yourself this. What if it was general play and a green player was offside on black 10 metre line and play moved towards Green goal line. When would you call advantage over?

 

[Browner]

What if green then realise the black scrum is not stopping and rejoin maul style??

I'm unaware of a law that prevents this happening, but if they actually stop the 'scrumaul' progress then presumable that crystallises the PK for their earlier unbinding? With same location query as post #17.

??

 

[Browner]

Well, ask yourself this. What if it was general play and a green player was offside on black 10 metre line and play moved towards Green goal line. When would you call advantage over?

OK , so let's ( for arguments sake) say ..... AdvanOver 10m inside greens half.

You're suggesting that the green unbind is similarly 'cancelled by advantage gained' at this location. Which theoretically gives the scrum only 20m or so to retain their 'advantage being played' state ...?

I can see the your logic. And a loud AdvOver call communicates this to the B8...