Whistled, but not in touch.

tim White


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Three incident in two different games.
First; player heading toward touchline offloads just before he crosses the line, all the subs/coaches screamed for touch and the ref blew for it in good faith. Loads of players shout 'it never went out' etc. Ref admitted error of not looking for TJ and restarted with a scrum to team in posession on 15m line.:)

Second: knock-on in action of diving for a try. Ref correctly did not award try but gave knock-on against attacker-restart with 22m drop-out. :sad: Hmmm!

Third: Ref blows for ball in touch after a kick whilst still inflight after kick ahead, wind blows ball back infield (it never actually crossed the touch line). Ref then realises mistake and calls 'Play On' leaving many confused players and spectators.:wow:
 

BillBu


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1: The referee should have stuck to his guns and have given out if he believed it had gone out or not given it if he didn't believe it was so. The decision is his and not the coaches / players. Was there an appointed touch judge?

2: Should have been 5 meter scrum to the defence.

3: Should have stuck with decision again. Whistle stops play so you cannot carry on after blowing the whistle.
 

OB..


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There, but for the grace of God, ...
 

Dickie E


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for issues 1 & 3 I'd be interested if there was a reliable TJ (issue 1 suggests that there was).
 

Pablo


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Issue 1 is a toughie - I recall my first ever 1st XV league match (in the no longer existent Eastern Counties 3) with the home TJ flagging the away side for touch a metre or two before they reached the touch line. The first time he did it, I blew my whistle in good faith; he tried it again and I played on, then relived him of the flag at the next stoppage. However, once you've blown your whistle, the game is stopped regardless of how mistaken you might have been. A lesson for the future.

Issue 2 is a clear error in Law. But we all hav the occasional brain fart, so as long as it's pointed out the the ref so he learns from it, then that's the best that can come of the situation.

Issue 3: Again, once the whistle is blown, the game must stop - shouting "play on" isn't a clean way of resolving the mistake. Another lesson to be learned though - it's not in touch until the ball makes contact with the ground, a person or an object beyond the touchline. It must have been a windy day though!
 

Toby Warren


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Issue 2

Just thining outloud rather than making a point but is there not an argument for the following;

Poster states he was diving for a try therefore could have been kicked in goal by attackers - attacker knocks on trying to score and doesn't ground it. Defender then grounds it why could that not be a 22?

1st offence was the knock on - play advantage you consider the 22 more advantage therefore award that
 

Dickie E


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"As a referee, if I was in a position to be able to make these marginal touch calls, I would consider myself to be out of position."
Discuss.
 

SimonSmith


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Issue 2

Just thining outloud rather than making a point but is there not an argument for the following;

Poster states he was diving for a try therefore could have been kicked in goal by attackers - attacker knocks on trying to score and doesn't ground it. Defender then grounds it why could that not be a 22?

1st offence was the knock on - play advantage you consider the 22 more advantage therefore award that

Not sure I understand your thinking here. Can you elaborate?
 

Toby Warren


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Not sure I understand your thinking here. Can you elaborate?

Ball kicked in goal by attackers (red) - red 14 chases it knocks on in goal (but doesn't ground it or send it dead)

Therefore advantage to defenders (Blue) for the knock on. Blue 15 grounds it in goal.

You can award the scrum 5 blue for the knock on. Or can you play advantage for the knock on - blue grounds it and as it was taken in by red - award the 22?

Hopefully that is clearer!
 

Dixie


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There seems to be a consensus that a knock-on in the field of play that goes into in-goal and is then grounded does not lead to a 22m but to a defending scrum 5 - even though the 22m drop-out may be more advantageous. I would think this approach also applies to offences that actually occur in-goal.

In this case, the knock-on was given against the attacker, and the incorrect restart was stipulated. I can only think that the ref believed the knock-on to have occurred in-goal, and had not adequately brushed up on the relevant sanctions. 22.12 or 22.15 apply - take your pick. Neither offer a 22m drop-out.
 

Toby Warren


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There seems to be a consensus that a knock-on in the field of play that goes into in-goal and is then grounded does not lead to a 22m but to a defending scrum 5 - even though the 22m drop-out may be more advantageous. I would think this approach also applies to offences that actually occur in-goal.
QUOTE]

Thanks Dixie as I said I was thinking outloud. I probally would ahve given the scrum 1st offence etc etc
 

chopper15

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There seems to be a consensus that a knock-on in the field of play that goes into in-goal and is then grounded does not lead to a 22m but to a defending scrum 5 - even though the 22m drop-out may be more advantageous. I would think this approach also applies to offences that actually occur in-goal.

In this case, the knock-on was given against the attacker, and the incorrect restart was stipulated. I can only think that the ref believed the knock-on to have occurred in-goal, and had not adequately brushed up on the relevant sanctions. 22.12 or 22.15 apply - take your pick. Neither offer a 22m drop-out.

A 5m scrum defending ball if there's no defender.

If there is a defender back over the goal-line; ref. would play advantage.

Should defender then choose to touch down . . . 22m drop-out.
 

PaulDG


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A 5m scrum defending ball if there's no defender.

If there is a defender back over the goal-line; ref. would play advantage.

Should defender then choose to touch down . . . 22m drop-out.

I like the logic, Chopper. Good thinking.
 

David J.


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There's no debate 'bout this one....Dixie named the laws, here's one of their texts:

22.15 Infringements In-Goal
"A knock on or a throw forward in the in-goal results in a 5-metre
scrum, opposite the place of infringement. "

Even if you play advantage, there's no 22m drop.
 

chopper15

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There's no debate 'bout this one....Dixie named the laws, here's one of their texts:

22.15 Infringements In-Goal
"A knock on or a throw forward in the in-goal results in a 5-metre
scrum, opposite the place of infringement. "

Even if you play advantage, there's no 22m drop.



Come on, David, play the game!

You omitted the 1st para. of the law; All infringements in the in-goal are treated as if they had taken place in the field of play.
 

Deeps


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I am afraid that Dixie and David J are the only ones that have got this right, an attacking knock on in goal or a knock on that goes into goal results in a 5 metre scrum only. There is no provision to award a 22 metre drop out should the defenders touch the ball down (although there used to be, once upon a time).

A knock on is a knock on for which the sanction is a scrum to the opposition. Advantage for a knock on is probably possession and two passes or possession and a reasonable kick to touch; a 22 metre drop out was considered to be a far too generous advantage for a team whose lack of positive play had found them camped in their in goal which is why the scrum was specified.
 

Toby Warren


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Come on, David, play the game!

You omitted the 1st para. of the law; All infringements in the in-goal are treated as if they had taken place in the field of play.

Since I posted my thinking about playing advantage for a knock on in goal it feels more and more right. Why would I not allow it?

Dixie (or anyone else) could you explain (or refer me to the debate) as to why the consensus was reached about 5m scrum being the option.
 

David J.


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Because the LOTG specifically says how you restart after a touch down in 22.7. Below is the whole section. There's no possibility of a 22 drop when a player has knocked on in the field of play. If there's been a knock on then a touch down, 22.7(b) applies.

22.7 RESTARTING AFTER A TOUCH DOWN
(a) When an attacking player sends or carries the ball into the
opponents’ in-goal and it becomes dead there, either because a
defender grounded it or because it went into touch-in-goal or on
or over the dead ball line, a drop out is awarded.
(b) If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of
play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made
dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock on or throw
forward happened.
(c) If at a kick off the ball is kicked into the opponents’ in-goal
without having touched or been touched by a player and a
defending player grounds it there or makes it dead without delay,
the defending team have two choices:
To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball;
or
To have the other team kick off again.
(d) If a defending player threw or took the ball into the in-goal, and a
defending player grounded it, and there has been no infringement,
play is restarted by a 5-metre scrum. The position of the scrum is
in line with where the ball has been touched down. The
attacking side throws in the ball.

Now if the attacking ball carrier was already in the in goal and knocks on and a defender grounds the ball...that's a tougher one, but I'd still go with a 5m under Deeps equity explanation and the idea that the defenders have not gained a territorial advantage and probably not a tactical one at the time play was stopped.
 
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Toby Warren


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Because the LOTG specifically says how you restart after a touch down in 22.7. Below is the whole section. There's no possibility of a 22 drop when a player has knocked on in the field of play. If there's been a knock on then a touch down, 22.7(b) applies.

22.7 RESTARTING AFTER A TOUCH DOWN
(a) When an attacking player sends or carries the ball into the
opponents’ in-goal and it becomes dead there, either because a
defender grounded it or because it went into touch-in-goal or on
or over the dead ball line, a drop out is awarded.
(b) If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of
play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made
dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock on or throw
forward happened.
(c) If at a kick off the ball is kicked into the opponents’ in-goal
without having touched or been touched by a player and a
defending player grounds it there or makes it dead without delay,
the defending team have two choices:
To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball;
or
To have the other team kick off again.
(d) If a defending player threw or took the ball into the in-goal, and a
defending player grounded it, and there has been no infringement,
play is restarted by a 5-metre scrum. The position of the scrum is
in line with where the ball has been touched down. The
attacking side throws in the ball.

David thanks but in the example the knock on doesn't happen in the field of play - it happens in goal therefore 27.7(b) doesn't apply.

So why can't we play advantage and award the 22? (or at least have the option of)
 
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